Replying to this rather than cloging up the topic with KK's monster post again.
Which BTW I did read the whole thing.
@ Ben: I would think so. At least your knowledge of The RP.
@ MM: And what would that be? @ KitKat: I think that looks good. We might need to figure out what to do with dale's sub HQ. I like how you included Rivendell with Bree. I vote that we have Mirkwood as the main elven HQ. No cannonical reason for this, only that it was much more active than Lothlorion.
About Dale. I think of Dorworion as its own nation. Tolkien never said anything on it except the one line in the hobbit, about the wines. Since it did trade with Mirkwood and Dale I would think that it would be its own nation and not a part of Rhun. Maybe we make dale more of a Rohavanion faction (with the HQ still at Dale) and make the sub HQ the Vail of the Aunduin.
On MWE: Then do you say that we have a steady MWE? Since that's what I think too.
@ MM2: Gobblen town is north of Moria; and thus closer to Moria than to Isenguard. And while maybe Dunland is closer to Moria. I don't see the wild men serving orcs. Remember they where serving Sauraman not orcs. And they where said to have served Sauraman in the WotR. Therefore I think that the wild men should be a part of Isenguard, not Moria.
@ Everyone: I think that if say a good HQ captures a evil Sub-HQ, and then another Evil HQ comes and conquers that HQ again. I think that if they decide to take that Sun-HQ for their own they could train troops of that HQ. However I think that they should give it back to its rightful owner. Should Sub HQ give MWE to enemy HQ's? that is harder to answer. I almost want to say yes. But I know that elves and dwarves or even men would never serve orcs, and vice versa.
I think we have two options with that.
1. Give the same penntally as when a full HQ is conquered (I don't remember what that was though). Or
2. Make the Sub HQ's act like a reagon when they are conquered. It just gives MWE to the HQ that own's it. I would say around maybe 5000 MWE or so.
Do we allow 'monster units'? I don't know, that might have to be figured out in a vote.
If troops from that Sub-HQ are loss. Yes. I think that if you lose troops from that Sub-HQ you should be able to regenerate them. Not just any troops you lose though.
@all sorry for the longish post there was a lot to cover.
Your first post to me: What are you talking about? Here is what you said:And what would that be? which makes no sense without context. Your second thing, I was more of talking about relative closeness and just how that is. . . not good. At least not in my mind. I totally agree with having it like that, I just wanted to make the point. @everyone: I personally think that it should be this way for losing Sub HQ's: They can be conquered by the other side, but the other side only gets the normal 1,000 from it.
And talking about regeneration, I think that you should be able to regenerate any of your 30,000 MWE in either location
Oh, and about Monster Units: I believe that an HQ like Dol Guldur can use 'Monster Units' that might come from a regular HQ if said HQ is it's Sub-HQ. So Bree can Use Elves, Dol Guldur can use Werewolves and men, Isengard can use Wildlings etc. regardless of the region's current owner.
@8l: You might not be "clogging up" the topic with reiterations of my post, but I'm clogging it up with yours.
Dorwinion certainly wasn't actually part of Rhun, it's always just come across to me as more similar to Rhun than any other people (not actually part of Rhun).
Yes on the MWE. I think we should go back to where every HQ has the same amount of MWE, but just with their standard unit at different worths and thus have different working troop limits (even though all troop limits are technically equal).
@both of you/general: I rather like the idea of sub-HQs being capturable, where if they're defeated then the invading army takes control of the topic until retaken. However, as MM alluded to, I don't think the new owner should get the full ten thousand troops, as that'd significantly throw off the balance of power. Instead, I suggest that they get half of its worth, so five thousand. The normal one thousand just seems to be too little to me.
As for the regeneration of sub-HQs, I think we should keep their troops separate from the troops of the parent HQ. If we merely make them as troop bonuses and alternate regeneration locations, then they seem to be little more than "super-regions". As actual sub-HQs, though, their troops will stay separate from the main HQ's troops. Like the example I mentioned before. If you look at the Rohan HQ, Edoras and Fangorn should naturally be separated. Edoras will field and maintain the Rohirrim troops, while Fangorn will produce the Ents out of its own troop limit. Edoras doesn't have the resources to supply Entish troops, nor does Fangorn have the resources to train Rohirrim. The sub-HQ is entirely separate from the parent HQ, except for the fact that one is under the control of the other. Same goes with Isengard and Dunland: the Wild Men have no Uruk-hai among them from which to train them, and the only Dunlendings at Isengard are those who moved over there from Dunland. As sub-HQs and main-HQs take different kinds of troops from different pools of resources, it only seems logical that their troops can only be regenerated at their own HQ, and only according to the kinds of troops used by that specific HQ (whether subsidiary or primary).
Monster units we should keep. I'm not sure that we should include Eagles or Fellbeasts (or any other flying creature) simply because of the extra layer of arguments that they inevitably cause, but Trolls and other such creatures should definitely be kept. Those Werewolves and other things will have to be re-examined for canonicity, though. I'm fairly certain Gundabad became an Orcish kingdom and didn't include any men, and as I talked about just above this, a sub-HQ's troops should stay separate from its parent-HQ's troops. If Fangorn Forest was captured, then Rohan would have no source of Ents, and so Edoras has no right to field Ents beyond those already in battle. If the Iron Hills were captured, and thus Erebor's source of boars removed, then Erebor would no longer be able to train new cavalry units. And if Dunland was destroyed, then likewise, Isengard would lose its Dunlending allies and would no longer be able to field additional Wild Men in its service. The same goes with Bree and its Elves, Harad and its navy, Rhun and its Wainriders, and every other HQ (though some of the sub-HQs are less-different than the parent HQs than these). This also adds additional value to the sub-HQs, as losing them isn't just about losing a few thousand troops, but about losing certain types of troops too. Just as Gondor can't field Elven troops since it's not an Elvish HQ, Edoras can't field Entish troops since it's not an Ent HQ. Sub HQs should act just like full HQs, except that they can be captured and are extensions of main HQs (and thus don't require their own groups of members).
Post by masterlegobuilders on Mar 2, 2017 13:10:32 GMT
So, on the subject of sub-HQs, I think that yes, they should give the 5000 troop bonus, however, this should not be regenerable (Can't regen) This encourages the capturing side not to hold it forever and helps avoid unbalance, where the capturing side could create a large imbalance (15000 MWE if held for a long time) Otherwise someone will decide to just capture the enemy Subs and slowly wear down the other side (Totally not my idea )
As for everything else, I think KK's list is great and I don't think there is anything else.
One mod to rule them all and in the darkness ban them - Lord of the Mods "I am the Mod Reborn!" - masterlegobuilders I'm the real boss
Your first post to me: What are you talking about? Here is what you said:And what would that be? which makes no sense without context. Your second thing, I was more of talking about relative closeness and just how that is. . . not good. At least not in my mind. I totally agree with having it like that, I just wanted to make the point. @everyone: I personally think that it should be this way for losing Sub HQ's: They can be conquered by the other side, but the other side only gets the normal 1,000 from it.
And talking about regeneration, I think that you should be able to regenerate any of your 30,000 MWE in either location
Oh, and about Monster Units: I believe that an HQ like Dol Guldur can use 'Monster Units' that might come from a regular HQ if said HQ is it's Sub-HQ. So Bree can Use Elves, Dol Guldur can use Werewolves and men, Isengard can use Wildlings etc. regardless of the region's current owner.
@8l: You might not be "clogging up" the topic with reiterations of my post, but I'm clogging it up with yours.
Dorwinion certainly wasn't actually part of Rhun, it's always just come across to me as more similar to Rhun than any other people (not actually part of Rhun).
Yes on the MWE. I think we should go back to where every HQ has the same amount of MWE, but just with their standard unit at different worths and thus have different working troop limits (even though all troop limits are technically equal).
@both of you/general: I rather like the idea of sub-HQs being capturable, where if they're defeated then the invading army takes control of the topic until retaken. However, as MM alluded to, I don't think the new owner should get the full ten thousand troops, as that'd significantly throw off the balance of power. Instead, I suggest that they get half of its worth, so five thousand. The normal one thousand just seems to be too little to me.
As for the regeneration of sub-HQs, I think we should keep their troops separate from the troops of the parent HQ. If we merely make them as troop bonuses and alternate regeneration locations, then they seem to be little more than "super-regions". As actual sub-HQs, though, their troops will stay separate from the main HQ's troops. Like the example I mentioned before. If you look at the Rohan HQ, Edoras and Fangorn should naturally be separated. Edoras will field and maintain the Rohirrim troops, while Fangorn will produce the Ents out of its own troop limit. Edoras doesn't have the resources to supply Entish troops, nor does Fangorn have the resources to train Rohirrim. The sub-HQ is entirely separate from the parent HQ, except for the fact that one is under the control of the other. Same goes with Isengard and Dunland: the Wild Men have no Uruk-hai among them from which to train them, and the only Dunlendings at Isengard are those who moved over there from Dunland. As sub-HQs and main-HQs take different kinds of troops from different pools of resources, it only seems logical that their troops can only be regenerated at their own HQ, and only according to the kinds of troops used by that specific HQ (whether subsidiary or primary).
Monster units we should keep. I'm not sure that we should include Eagles or Fellbeasts (or any other flying creature) simply because of the extra layer of arguments that they inevitably cause, but Trolls and other such creatures should definitely be kept. Those Werewolves and other things will have to be re-examined for canonicity, though. I'm fairly certain Gundabad became an Orcish kingdom and didn't include any men, and as I talked about just above this, a sub-HQ's troops should stay separate from its parent-HQ's troops. If Fangorn Forest was captured, then Rohan would have no source of Ents, and so Edoras has no right to field Ents beyond those already in battle. If the Iron Hills were captured, and thus Erebor's source of boars removed, then Erebor would no longer be able to train new cavalry units. And if Dunland was destroyed, then likewise, Isengard would lose its Dunlending allies and would no longer be able to field additional Wild Men in its service. The same goes with Bree and its Elves, Harad and its navy, Rhun and its Wainriders, and every other HQ (though some of the sub-HQs are less-different than the parent HQs than these). This also adds additional value to the sub-HQs, as losing them isn't just about losing a few thousand troops, but about losing certain types of troops too. Just as Gondor can't field Elven troops since it's not an Elvish HQ, Edoras can't field Entish troops since it's not an Ent HQ. Sub HQs should act just like full HQs, except that they can be captured and are extensions of main HQs (and thus don't require their own groups of members).
Makes sense. And I wasn't saying that we should have Eagles and Fellbeasts, I was talking more along the lines of Dol Guldur's stuff. I have no idea about the Canonicity of Men in Gundabad, I just know that Gundabad had Men and Werewolves in the Old RP.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
Your first post to me: What are you talking about? Here is what you said:And what would that be? which makes no sense without context. Your second thing, I was more of talking about relative closeness and just how that is. . . not good. At least not in my mind. I totally agree with having it like that, I just wanted to make the point. @everyone: I personally think that it should be this way for losing Sub HQ's: They can be conquered by the other side, but the other side only gets the normal 1,000 from it.
And talking about regeneration, I think that you should be able to regenerate any of your 30,000 MWE in either location
Oh, and about Monster Units: I believe that an HQ like Dol Guldur can use 'Monster Units' that might come from a regular HQ if said HQ is it's Sub-HQ. So Bree can Use Elves, Dol Guldur can use Werewolves and men, Isengard can use Wildlings etc. regardless of the region's current owner.
@8l: You might not be "clogging up" the topic with reiterations of my post, but I'm clogging it up with yours.
Dorwinion certainly wasn't actually part of Rhun, it's always just come across to me as more similar to Rhun than any other people (not actually part of Rhun).
Yes on the MWE. I think we should go back to where every HQ has the same amount of MWE, but just with their standard unit at different worths and thus have different working troop limits (even though all troop limits are technically equal).
@both of you/general: I rather like the idea of sub-HQs being capturable, where if they're defeated then the invading army takes control of the topic until retaken. However, as MM alluded to, I don't think the new owner should get the full ten thousand troops, as that'd significantly throw off the balance of power. Instead, I suggest that they get half of its worth, so five thousand. The normal one thousand just seems to be too little to me.
As for the regeneration of sub-HQs, I think we should keep their troops separate from the troops of the parent HQ. If we merely make them as troop bonuses and alternate regeneration locations, then they seem to be little more than "super-regions". As actual sub-HQs, though, their troops will stay separate from the main HQ's troops. Like the example I mentioned before. If you look at the Rohan HQ, Edoras and Fangorn should naturally be separated. Edoras will field and maintain the Rohirrim troops, while Fangorn will produce the Ents out of its own troop limit. Edoras doesn't have the resources to supply Entish troops, nor does Fangorn have the resources to train Rohirrim. The sub-HQ is entirely separate from the parent HQ, except for the fact that one is under the control of the other. Same goes with Isengard and Dunland: the Wild Men have no Uruk-hai among them from which to train them, and the only Dunlendings at Isengard are those who moved over there from Dunland. As sub-HQs and main-HQs take different kinds of troops from different pools of resources, it only seems logical that their troops can only be regenerated at their own HQ, and only according to the kinds of troops used by that specific HQ (whether subsidiary or primary).
Monster units we should keep. I'm not sure that we should include Eagles or Fellbeasts (or any other flying creature) simply because of the extra layer of arguments that they inevitably cause, but Trolls and other such creatures should definitely be kept. Those Werewolves and other things will have to be re-examined for canonicity, though. I'm fairly certain Gundabad became an Orcish kingdom and didn't include any men, and as I talked about just above this, a sub-HQ's troops should stay separate from its parent-HQ's troops. If Fangorn Forest was captured, then Rohan would have no source of Ents, and so Edoras has no right to field Ents beyond those already in battle. If the Iron Hills were captured, and thus Erebor's source of boars removed, then Erebor would no longer be able to train new cavalry units. And if Dunland was destroyed, then likewise, Isengard would lose its Dunlending allies and would no longer be able to field additional Wild Men in its service. The same goes with Bree and its Elves, Harad and its navy, Rhun and its Wainriders, and every other HQ (though some of the sub-HQs are less-different than the parent HQs than these). This also adds additional value to the sub-HQs, as losing them isn't just about losing a few thousand troops, but about losing certain types of troops too. Just as Gondor can't field Elven troops since it's not an Elvish HQ, Edoras can't field Entish troops since it's not an Ent HQ. Sub HQs should act just like full HQs, except that they can be captured and are extensions of main HQs (and thus don't require their own groups of members).
At least mine wasn't 12000+ characters.
Then what do we do for the Dalian sub-hq? Dorwonion? Laketown? Or maybe a Beorning Sub-HQ. I like the idea of it being the Vale of the Aunduin. That should help pull Dale's focus away from Rhun, hopefully preventing a 3 v 1 against Rhun. Which I know Lion did not approve of.
Ok, just clarifying.
I like that idea myself. 5000 MWE for a captured Sub HQ?
Sounds good.
I vote no flying creatures. I'm fine with some ware wolves. BECAUSE if we do have a Beorning HQ. They should get Skin changers. Which are a 'Werebear' and maybe other animals (Tolkien never said that the skin changers could only change into a Bear.
Replying to this rather than cloging up the topic with KK's monster post again.
Which BTW I did read the whole thing.
@ Ben: I would think so. At least your knowledge of The RP.
@ MM: And what would that be? @ KitKat: I think that looks good. We might need to figure out what to do with dale's sub HQ. I like how you included Rivendell with Bree. I vote that we have Mirkwood as the main elven HQ. No cannonical reason for this, only that it was much more active than Lothlorion.
About Dale. I think of Dorworion as its own nation. Tolkien never said anything on it except the one line in the hobbit, about the wines. Since it did trade with Mirkwood and Dale I would think that it would be its own nation and not a part of Rhun. Maybe we make dale more of a Rohavanion faction (with the HQ still at Dale) and make the sub HQ the Vail of the Aunduin.
On MWE: Then do you say that we have a steady MWE? Since that's what I think too.
@ MM2: Gobblen town is north of Moria; and thus closer to Moria than to Isenguard. And while maybe Dunland is closer to Moria. I don't see the wild men serving orcs. Remember they where serving Sauraman not orcs. And they where said to have served Sauraman in the WotR. Therefore I think that the wild men should be a part of Isenguard, not Moria.
@ Everyone: I think that if say a good HQ captures a evil Sub-HQ, and then another Evil HQ comes and conquers that HQ again. I think that if they decide to take that Sun-HQ for their own they could train troops of that HQ. However I think that they should give it back to its rightful owner. Should Sub HQ give MWE to enemy HQ's? that is harder to answer. I almost want to say yes. But I know that elves and dwarves or even men would never serve orcs, and vice versa.
I think we have two options with that.
1. Give the same penntally as when a full HQ is conquered (I don't remember what that was though). Or
2. Make the Sub HQ's act like a reagon when they are conquered. It just gives MWE to the HQ that own's it. I would say around maybe 5000 MWE or so.
Do we allow 'monster units'? I don't know, that might have to be figured out in a vote.
If troops from that Sub-HQ are loss. Yes. I think that if you lose troops from that Sub-HQ you should be able to regenerate them. Not just any troops you lose though.
@all sorry for the longish post there was a lot to cover.
Your first post to me: What are you talking about? Here is what you said:And what would that be? which makes no sense without context. Your second thing, I was more of talking about relative closeness and just how that is. . . not good. At least not in my mind. I totally agree with having it like that, I just wanted to make the point. @everyone: I personally think that it should be this way for losing Sub HQ's: They can be conquered by the other side, but the other side only gets the normal 1,000 from it.
And talking about regeneration, I think that you should be able to regenerate any of your 30,000 MWE in either location
Oh, and about Monster Units: I believe that an HQ like Dol Guldur can use 'Monster Units' that might come from a regular HQ if said HQ is it's Sub-HQ. So Bree can Use Elves, Dol Guldur can use Werewolves and men, Isengard can use Wildlings etc. regardless of the region's current owner.
You said that you learned something from one of my posts. And I wanted to know what that was.
I can see where you are coming from, but I say we should keep how it is.
I think I'll go with Mirkwood for my HQ. I don't know about second, maybe Bree? Just say if you want me to join you (Obviously only Good RPers )
Actually, I think I might go Evil this time, because I've never gone properly bad Sorry 8L, but you'll need another leader for Mirkwood I'll also probably go for an HQ with men, so probably Harad or Rhun. In fact, unless someone has an objection, or would like it, I will go for Harad
One mod to rule them all and in the darkness ban them - Lord of the Mods "I am the Mod Reborn!" - masterlegobuilders I'm the real boss
I really need to make a post here so I stop forgetting about this place. So because of that, here are my suggestions for the HQs (and subs).
Good:
Bree (Rivendell)
Mirkwood (Lothlorien, or vice versa)
Erebor (Iron Hills)
Dale (Esgaroth)
Edoras (Fangorn Forest, or maybe Druadan Forest)
Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth)
Evil:
Moria (Goblin-town, or vice versa)
Dol Guldur (Gundabad)
Rhun (Khand)
Isengard (Dunland)
Barad-dur (Minas Morgul)
Harad (Umbar)
And my reasoning: Good:
Bree (Rivendell): Originally, I was planning to separate Rivendell into its own HQ. However, I couldn't think of a very good sub-HQ (for Rivendell), and after examining things I found that this helps things go quite nicely (for the distribution of power, by allowing an extra HQ elsewhere). I find Bree to be a better fit as the main HQ partially because of its more central location in the region (as it's the good HQ of Eriador), and also for general balance. Although Rivendell would realistically likely be leading the troops of Bree if battle came, canonically, Rivendell is (for much of the part) fighting for the protection of Bree, while Bree is fighting for the protection of itself and those in the countryside and smaller towns. Thus it seems reasonable that Bree would be the main HQ, while Rivendell the subsidiary. Bree is also significantly larger than Rivendell when you take into account the other peoples we're folding into it (country-folk, the Hobbits, and Dunedain), so logically it should be the larger HQ.
Mirkwood (Lothlorien, or vice/versa): These are here for obvious reasons, one being the need for an independent group of Elves. Personally, I have no real preference for which one is the main HQ and which is the sub, nor do I see any significant reason in canon to favor one over the other. If someone has a strong preference for Lothlorien instead, I see absolutely no problem with switching them. When it comes to the distribution of power, the main issue that I see coming up is Mirkwood's closer proximity to Dol Guldur. If Mirkwood is the sub, then there's a very high chance that it'd be quickly captured by Dol Guldur, causing obvious issues with balance. Thus, it seems to better to have the sub be the one off in the distance, and the main HQ closer to the threat.
Erebor (Iron Hills): Again, these are obviously here to satisfy the need for a Dwarven HQ. I suggest the Iron Hills as the sub HQ mainly because of the fact that it is indeed, canonically, a colony/settlement of The Mountain. The other main options for sub would be the Ered Luin in the West or the Orocarni in the East. The Ered Luin would be a good fit due to being the same family of Dwarves as Erebor (seeing as how many stayed behind even after Erebor was reclaimed), and has the bonus over the Iron Hills of being set somewhat away from The Mountain. But that's also the very reason why it's a worse fit, because it's rather too far away, and also messes up the distribution of power. The Orocarni would fix that problem since it's away from Erebor but still in the general area, although they are cut off from each other due to Rhun. Its problems are the fact that it's within poorly-charted territory (we'd put it just east of Rhun), and also the fact that the Orocarni contains several substantial and fully independent (non-Longbeard) Dwarven kingdoms, making it almost more fit as an HQ of its own (except for the fact that we know little about them and they were never involved in the War of the Ring).
Dale (Esgaroth): Dale I had originally planned as the sub-HQ of Erebor (sub because otherwise we'd have an overwhelming amount of Men and no real group of Dwarves), but putting Rivendell under Bree allowed me to make it its own HQ. I find this to be best for the sake of the balance of power and also due to 8L's request. Esgaroth seems the most logical sub, as it is sort of an offshoot of Dale, though it may be a little close. I also don't know of many alternatives. I mean, I guess you could add in the Beornings. Dorwinion might be an option too, but I'm not sure. I've always been under the impression that Dorwinion was more akin to Rhun than any of the kingdoms of the Free Peoples (probably from its geographical location, and possibly because Gondor withdrew its hold over it), but I guess they did at least trade with Mirkwood and perhaps others.
Edoras (Fangorn): Rohan's also a pretty clear choice for a main HQ. For its sub, I find Fangorn to be the best fit. The only other options that I could really think of are the Beornings (which seem better under Dale, and are certainly no better than the Ents) or Helm's Deep. Helm's Deep I'm inclined to leave as an ordinary region because it had no real populace. From my understanding, the only people who stayed at Helm's Deep were the few soldiers (and maybe their families) left there to maintain it when not in use (with the occasional passing army visiting in times of war, or when the fortress was under direct threat), and was otherwise only a refuge for the kingdom in times of need. I guess you could include people from the countryside, but even they're better under the main HQ at Edoras. Fangorn, on the other hand, was actually separate (obviously) from Edoras, and naturally is an ally of Rohan. Plus, they deserve to be included seeing as how they were the ones who destroyed Isengard. (As a note, I expect that most of Fangorn's troops would naturally consist of Huorns, with full-fledged Ents being more of the elite troops. This is canonical, and justifies the number of troops Fangorn would have.) Now that I've thought of it, I suppose the Druadan would also be suitable for as Rohan's subsidiary, though they weren't very closely tied to Rohan, really. That, and I think we should keep some Ents to go along with the Trolls.
Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth): I don't think these need a whole lot of elaboration.
Evil:
Moria (Goblin-town): These two were difficult, but I think Goblin-town (effectively the Misty Mountains) should be Moria's sub-HQ. Obviously we need either Moria or the Misty Mountains in some form or another, and I was originally inclined to combine them into the same HQ, but for the sake of Dol Guldur's subsidiary I think either Moria or the Misty Mountains should be a sub for the other. It doesn't really matter which is which, but I chose Moria because I think the Misty Mountains were folded into it in the old HQ, and I kind of see Moria as being somewhat "higher" than the rest of the Orcish homes in the Misty Mountains (primarily because Moria was inhabited by Orcs (and the Balrog), which I believe much of the rest of the Misty Mountains housed more Goblins). I also specified Goblin-town instead of just the Misty Mountains because it's a more concise location. Naming Goblin-town gives us a solid location to work from, and gives us some actual specificity as to what it actually is. The other option for sub is Gundabad, but I put that under Dol Guldur (which means that if Dol Guldur's sub is changed, Gundabad could be put under Moria). If someone would rather have Goblin-town be the main HQ, that'd be fine by me. I'd be perfectly happy being able to restore Khazad-dum to its rightful owners.
Dol Guldur (Gundabad): These were actually what made me put Goblin-town as the sub-HQ of Moria instead of Gundabad. I do think Dol Guldur needs to be its own HQ. It played a considerable role in the War of the Ring (well, I remember the Elves captured it, and I feel like more happened, but I don't actually remember ), and I know Tuvok would be quite upset if it wasn't. I was planning to put the Mirkwood Spiders as the sub-HQ, but I wasn't really sure about how much they'd be liked as units. If others would prefer to have the spiders as the subsidiary here, that would free up Gundabad for Moria, and Goblin-town could be merged with Moria. I do believe the Orcs of Gundabad were more closely related to those of Moria and the rest of the Misty Mountains, which is why I was going to put it as the sub there, but I eventually decided to cut the spiders and put Gundabad here and then separate Moria and the Misty Mountains. Though even if Dol Guldur and Gundabad aren't actually closely related by blood, they at least seem similar in nature and on the battlefield. Whether we keep this or make Gundabad part of Moria, I think Gundabad should stay as a subsidiary, primarily because both Moria and Dol Guldur have been requested as main HQs, and totally not because I want to reclaim it.
Rhun (Khand): These seem to be pretty well accepted, and I don't really know of many other options for sub-HQ. I guess you could throw the Grey Mountains into the Moria/Misty Mountains/Dol Guldur/Gundabad mess, but I really don't want to do that. Rhun itself seems necessary for the balance of power in the Northeast.
Isengard (Dunland): Isengard obviously needs to be included here, and Dunland seems to be the most natural sub-HQ. I mean, canonically, the Dunlendings were serving under Saruman. I also don't know of any other good options.
Barad-dur (Minas Morgul): Pretty straight-forward, I don't think any elaboration is needed.
Harad (Umbar): These also seem to be fairly well agreed upon.
With this setup, it seems to me that the HQs will be distributed fairly equally throughout Middle-earth. For Good, you have Bree in Eriador (one HQ), Mirkwood, Erebor, and Dale in Rhovanion (three HQs), and Rohan and Gondor in the South (two HQs). For Evil, you've got Moria for Eriador (one HQ, though it can realistically go to Rhovanion just as well) (actually, make that one and a half because of Gundabad), Dol Guldur and Rhun in Rhovanion (two HQs, plus one for Moria), and Isengard, Mordor, and Harad for the South (three HQs). This seems to be just the right amount of imbalance: not so much to necessarily grant certain areas to one side or the other or to pin down any HQs, but enough to force people to travel outside their immediate area at least a little bit.
The sub-HQs also seem to be placed fairly well this way. Most of them are spread out enough to actually separate them from their parent-HQs, and not so close that they simply merge with the main HQ or become useless as outposts (not all of them, though, such as the usual HQ-cluster in Rhovanion that we still have). None of them are cut off from their parent or are doomed to being captured, either.
You may also noticed that instead of just saying things like "Rohan" or "Mordor", I specified "Edoras" and "Barad-dur". While these aren't really necessary, it seems like better practice to me to do that so as to keep the HQs as concise as possible. Maybe it's just me, but it seems more professional to specify the actual capital where the troops are coming from and where the fortress is, as opposed to just naming the general region. Sadly, I don't know of any specific cities for Harad, Rhun, or Khand. If anyone knows of anything, let me know.
And I think lastly (I thought I had more I wanted to bring up, but if I did it's slipped my mind after all of that other stuff ), when it comes to troop limits, I think we should stick to what we had before with the standard MWE system. Twenty thousand MWE for each main HQ, and probably ten thousand for each sub-HQ. Maybe change those numbers a little bit (though I think they're perfectly good for our purposes), but keep the system the same with each HQ having the same worth, but split among different amounts of troops (so Elvish and Dwarvish standard troops being worth 1.33 MWE, and Orcish ones 0.8, making fifteen thousand or twenty-five thousand troopers for twenty thousand MWE, respectively). We have true HQ-size differences in the Fourth-age RP, so I think we should keep this one somewhat distinct by sticking with the old system (I know that The Hobbit RP certainly wasn't very distinct from the old LotR RP (before the resource system), just inferior ).
So if anyone actually got through all of that, those are my thoughts on the matters here. You can take it or leave it, or change it as you wish, but that's how I think things should be.
@8l: You might not be "clogging up" the topic with reiterations of my post, but I'm clogging it up with yours.
Dorwinion certainly wasn't actually part of Rhun, it's always just come across to me as more similar to Rhun than any other people (not actually part of Rhun).
Yes on the MWE. I think we should go back to where every HQ has the same amount of MWE, but just with their standard unit at different worths and thus have different working troop limits (even though all troop limits are technically equal).
@both of you/general: I rather like the idea of sub-HQs being capturable, where if they're defeated then the invading army takes control of the topic until retaken. However, as MM alluded to, I don't think the new owner should get the full ten thousand troops, as that'd significantly throw off the balance of power. Instead, I suggest that they get half of its worth, so five thousand. The normal one thousand just seems to be too little to me.
As for the regeneration of sub-HQs, I think we should keep their troops separate from the troops of the parent HQ. If we merely make them as troop bonuses and alternate regeneration locations, then they seem to be little more than "super-regions". As actual sub-HQs, though, their troops will stay separate from the main HQ's troops. Like the example I mentioned before. If you look at the Rohan HQ, Edoras and Fangorn should naturally be separated. Edoras will field and maintain the Rohirrim troops, while Fangorn will produce the Ents out of its own troop limit. Edoras doesn't have the resources to supply Entish troops, nor does Fangorn have the resources to train Rohirrim. The sub-HQ is entirely separate from the parent HQ, except for the fact that one is under the control of the other. Same goes with Isengard and Dunland: the Wild Men have no Uruk-hai among them from which to train them, and the only Dunlendings at Isengard are those who moved over there from Dunland. As sub-HQs and main-HQs take different kinds of troops from different pools of resources, it only seems logical that their troops can only be regenerated at their own HQ, and only according to the kinds of troops used by that specific HQ (whether subsidiary or primary).
Monster units we should keep. I'm not sure that we should include Eagles or Fellbeasts (or any other flying creature) simply because of the extra layer of arguments that they inevitably cause, but Trolls and other such creatures should definitely be kept. Those Werewolves and other things will have to be re-examined for canonicity, though. I'm fairly certain Gundabad became an Orcish kingdom and didn't include any men, and as I talked about just above this, a sub-HQ's troops should stay separate from its parent-HQ's troops. If Fangorn Forest was captured, then Rohan would have no source of Ents, and so Edoras has no right to field Ents beyond those already in battle. If the Iron Hills were captured, and thus Erebor's source of boars removed, then Erebor would no longer be able to train new cavalry units. And if Dunland was destroyed, then likewise, Isengard would lose its Dunlending allies and would no longer be able to field additional Wild Men in its service. The same goes with Bree and its Elves, Harad and its navy, Rhun and its Wainriders, and every other HQ (though some of the sub-HQs are less-different than the parent HQs than these). This also adds additional value to the sub-HQs, as losing them isn't just about losing a few thousand troops, but about losing certain types of troops too. Just as Gondor can't field Elven troops since it's not an Elvish HQ, Edoras can't field Entish troops since it's not an Ent HQ. Sub HQs should act just like full HQs, except that they can be captured and are extensions of main HQs (and thus don't require their own groups of members).
At least mine wasn't 12000+ characters.
Then what do we do for the Dalian sub-hq? Dorwonion? Laketown? Or maybe a Beorning Sub-HQ. I like the idea of it being the Vale of the Aunduin. That should help pull Dale's focus away from Rhun, hopefully preventing a 3 v 1 against Rhun. Which I know Lion did not approve of.
Ok, just clarifying.
I like that idea myself. 5000 MWE for a captured Sub HQ?
Sounds good.
I vote no flying creatures. I'm fine with some ware wolves. BECAUSE if we do have a Beorning HQ. They should get Skin changers. Which are a 'Werebear' and maybe other animals (Tolkien never said that the skin changers could only change into a Bear.
I agree with everything you said.
Werewolves were extinct by the time of the WotR and if I remember correctly couldn't shift between men and wolves. They were spirits (I think Maiar) trapped in the bodies of wolves, and the most powerful of them were Draugluin and Charcaroth. Charcaroth was the one who bit off Beren's hand.
@8l: You might not be "clogging up" the topic with reiterations of my post, but I'm clogging it up with yours.
Dorwinion certainly wasn't actually part of Rhun, it's always just come across to me as more similar to Rhun than any other people (not actually part of Rhun).
Yes on the MWE. I think we should go back to where every HQ has the same amount of MWE, but just with their standard unit at different worths and thus have different working troop limits (even though all troop limits are technically equal).
@both of you/general: I rather like the idea of sub-HQs being capturable, where if they're defeated then the invading army takes control of the topic until retaken. However, as MM alluded to, I don't think the new owner should get the full ten thousand troops, as that'd significantly throw off the balance of power. Instead, I suggest that they get half of its worth, so five thousand. The normal one thousand just seems to be too little to me.
As for the regeneration of sub-HQs, I think we should keep their troops separate from the troops of the parent HQ. If we merely make them as troop bonuses and alternate regeneration locations, then they seem to be little more than "super-regions". As actual sub-HQs, though, their troops will stay separate from the main HQ's troops. Like the example I mentioned before. If you look at the Rohan HQ, Edoras and Fangorn should naturally be separated. Edoras will field and maintain the Rohirrim troops, while Fangorn will produce the Ents out of its own troop limit. Edoras doesn't have the resources to supply Entish troops, nor does Fangorn have the resources to train Rohirrim. The sub-HQ is entirely separate from the parent HQ, except for the fact that one is under the control of the other. Same goes with Isengard and Dunland: the Wild Men have no Uruk-hai among them from which to train them, and the only Dunlendings at Isengard are those who moved over there from Dunland. As sub-HQs and main-HQs take different kinds of troops from different pools of resources, it only seems logical that their troops can only be regenerated at their own HQ, and only according to the kinds of troops used by that specific HQ (whether subsidiary or primary).
Monster units we should keep. I'm not sure that we should include Eagles or Fellbeasts (or any other flying creature) simply because of the extra layer of arguments that they inevitably cause, but Trolls and other such creatures should definitely be kept. Those Werewolves and other things will have to be re-examined for canonicity, though. I'm fairly certain Gundabad became an Orcish kingdom and didn't include any men, and as I talked about just above this, a sub-HQ's troops should stay separate from its parent-HQ's troops. If Fangorn Forest was captured, then Rohan would have no source of Ents, and so Edoras has no right to field Ents beyond those already in battle. If the Iron Hills were captured, and thus Erebor's source of boars removed, then Erebor would no longer be able to train new cavalry units. And if Dunland was destroyed, then likewise, Isengard would lose its Dunlending allies and would no longer be able to field additional Wild Men in its service. The same goes with Bree and its Elves, Harad and its navy, Rhun and its Wainriders, and every other HQ (though some of the sub-HQs are less-different than the parent HQs than these). This also adds additional value to the sub-HQs, as losing them isn't just about losing a few thousand troops, but about losing certain types of troops too. Just as Gondor can't field Elven troops since it's not an Elvish HQ, Edoras can't field Entish troops since it's not an Ent HQ. Sub HQs should act just like full HQs, except that they can be captured and are extensions of main HQs (and thus don't require their own groups of members).
At least mine wasn't 12000+ characters.
Then what do we do for the Dalian sub-hq? Dorwonion? Laketown? Or maybe a Beorning Sub-HQ. I like the idea of it being the Vale of the Aunduin. That should help pull Dale's focus away from Rhun, hopefully preventing a 3 v 1 against Rhun. Which I know Lion did not approve of.
Ok, just clarifying.
I like that idea myself. 5000 MWE for a captured Sub HQ?
Sounds good.
I vote no flying creatures. I'm fine with some ware wolves. BECAUSE if we do have a Beorning HQ. They should get Skin changers. Which are a 'Werebear' and maybe other animals (Tolkien never said that the skin changers could only change into a Bear.
I agree with everything you said.
Pfft, it isn't even four thousand. Plus, mine is more condensed, so it takes up less vertical space.
And that's probably one of the parts that we'll actually need a vote on. Dale does have several options for its sub-HQ, but none of them are quite ideal.
Five thousand seems good to me. Not so much as to immediately let the capturing HQ overpower everyone else, but enough to make it noticeably better than a standard region. With how valuable sub-HQs are anyways, most of these troops will likely be used to defend them, just like the troops from regular regions are. Other troop bonuses like the SWE boost should probably also be about half.
I really need to make a post here so I stop forgetting about this place. So because of that, here are my suggestions for the HQs (and subs).
Good:
Bree (Rivendell)
Mirkwood (Lothlorien, or vice versa)
Erebor (Iron Hills)
Dale (Esgaroth)
Edoras (Fangorn Forest, or maybe Druadan Forest)
Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth)
Evil:
Moria (Goblin-town, or vice versa)
Dol Guldur (Gundabad)
Rhun (Khand)
Isengard (Dunland)
Barad-dur (Minas Morgul)
Harad (Umbar)
And my reasoning: Good:
Bree (Rivendell): Originally, I was planning to separate Rivendell into its own HQ. However, I couldn't think of a very good sub-HQ (for Rivendell), and after examining things I found that this helps things go quite nicely (for the distribution of power, by allowing an extra HQ elsewhere). I find Bree to be a better fit as the main HQ partially because of its more central location in the region (as it's the good HQ of Eriador), and also for general balance. Although Rivendell would realistically likely be leading the troops of Bree if battle came, canonically, Rivendell is (for much of the part) fighting for the protection of Bree, while Bree is fighting for the protection of itself and those in the countryside and smaller towns. Thus it seems reasonable that Bree would be the main HQ, while Rivendell the subsidiary. Bree is also significantly larger than Rivendell when you take into account the other peoples we're folding into it (country-folk, the Hobbits, and Dunedain), so logically it should be the larger HQ.
Mirkwood (Lothlorien, or vice/versa): These are here for obvious reasons, one being the need for an independent group of Elves. Personally, I have no real preference for which one is the main HQ and which is the sub, nor do I see any significant reason in canon to favor one over the other. If someone has a strong preference for Lothlorien instead, I see absolutely no problem with switching them. When it comes to the distribution of power, the main issue that I see coming up is Mirkwood's closer proximity to Dol Guldur. If Mirkwood is the sub, then there's a very high chance that it'd be quickly captured by Dol Guldur, causing obvious issues with balance. Thus, it seems to better to have the sub be the one off in the distance, and the main HQ closer to the threat.
Erebor (Iron Hills): Again, these are obviously here to satisfy the need for a Dwarven HQ. I suggest the Iron Hills as the sub HQ mainly because of the fact that it is indeed, canonically, a colony/settlement of The Mountain. The other main options for sub would be the Ered Luin in the West or the Orocarni in the East. The Ered Luin would be a good fit due to being the same family of Dwarves as Erebor (seeing as how many stayed behind even after Erebor was reclaimed), and has the bonus over the Iron Hills of being set somewhat away from The Mountain. But that's also the very reason why it's a worse fit, because it's rather too far away, and also messes up the distribution of power. The Orocarni would fix that problem since it's away from Erebor but still in the general area, although they are cut off from each other due to Rhun. Its problems are the fact that it's within poorly-charted territory (we'd put it just east of Rhun), and also the fact that the Orocarni contains several substantial and fully independent (non-Longbeard) Dwarven kingdoms, making it almost more fit as an HQ of its own (except for the fact that we know little about them and they were never involved in the War of the Ring).
Dale (Esgaroth): Dale I had originally planned as the sub-HQ of Erebor (sub because otherwise we'd have an overwhelming amount of Men and no real group of Dwarves), but putting Rivendell under Bree allowed me to make it its own HQ. I find this to be best for the sake of the balance of power and also due to 8L's request. Esgaroth seems the most logical sub, as it is sort of an offshoot of Dale, though it may be a little close. I also don't know of many alternatives. I mean, I guess you could add in the Beornings. Dorwinion might be an option too, but I'm not sure. I've always been under the impression that Dorwinion was more akin to Rhun than any of the kingdoms of the Free Peoples (probably from its geographical location, and possibly because Gondor withdrew its hold over it), but I guess they did at least trade with Mirkwood and perhaps others.
Edoras (Fangorn): Rohan's also a pretty clear choice for a main HQ. For its sub, I find Fangorn to be the best fit. The only other options that I could really think of are the Beornings (which seem better under Dale, and are certainly no better than the Ents) or Helm's Deep. Helm's Deep I'm inclined to leave as an ordinary region because it had no real populace. From my understanding, the only people who stayed at Helm's Deep were the few soldiers (and maybe their families) left there to maintain it when not in use (with the occasional passing army visiting in times of war, or when the fortress was under direct threat), and was otherwise only a refuge for the kingdom in times of need. I guess you could include people from the countryside, but even they're better under the main HQ at Edoras. Fangorn, on the other hand, was actually separate (obviously) from Edoras, and naturally is an ally of Rohan. Plus, they deserve to be included seeing as how they were the ones who destroyed Isengard. (As a note, I expect that most of Fangorn's troops would naturally consist of Huorns, with full-fledged Ents being more of the elite troops. This is canonical, and justifies the number of troops Fangorn would have.) Now that I've thought of it, I suppose the Druadan would also be suitable for as Rohan's subsidiary, though they weren't very closely tied to Rohan, really. That, and I think we should keep some Ents to go along with the Trolls.
Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth): I don't think these need a whole lot of elaboration.
Evil:
Moria (Goblin-town): These two were difficult, but I think Goblin-town (effectively the Misty Mountains) should be Moria's sub-HQ. Obviously we need either Moria or the Misty Mountains in some form or another, and I was originally inclined to combine them into the same HQ, but for the sake of Dol Guldur's subsidiary I think either Moria or the Misty Mountains should be a sub for the other. It doesn't really matter which is which, but I chose Moria because I think the Misty Mountains were folded into it in the old HQ, and I kind of see Moria as being somewhat "higher" than the rest of the Orcish homes in the Misty Mountains (primarily because Moria was inhabited by Orcs (and the Balrog), which I believe much of the rest of the Misty Mountains housed more Goblins). I also specified Goblin-town instead of just the Misty Mountains because it's a more concise location. Naming Goblin-town gives us a solid location to work from, and gives us some actual specificity as to what it actually is. The other option for sub is Gundabad, but I put that under Dol Guldur (which means that if Dol Guldur's sub is changed, Gundabad could be put under Moria). If someone would rather have Goblin-town be the main HQ, that'd be fine by me. I'd be perfectly happy being able to restore Khazad-dum to its rightful owners.
Dol Guldur (Gundabad): These were actually what made me put Goblin-town as the sub-HQ of Moria instead of Gundabad. I do think Dol Guldur needs to be its own HQ. It played a considerable role in the War of the Ring (well, I remember the Elves captured it, and I feel like more happened, but I don't actually remember ), and I know Tuvok would be quite upset if it wasn't. I was planning to put the Mirkwood Spiders as the sub-HQ, but I wasn't really sure about how much they'd be liked as units. If others would prefer to have the spiders as the subsidiary here, that would free up Gundabad for Moria, and Goblin-town could be merged with Moria. I do believe the Orcs of Gundabad were more closely related to those of Moria and the rest of the Misty Mountains, which is why I was going to put it as the sub there, but I eventually decided to cut the spiders and put Gundabad here and then separate Moria and the Misty Mountains. Though even if Dol Guldur and Gundabad aren't actually closely related by blood, they at least seem similar in nature and on the battlefield. Whether we keep this or make Gundabad part of Moria, I think Gundabad should stay as a subsidiary, primarily because both Moria and Dol Guldur have been requested as main HQs, and totally not because I want to reclaim it.
Rhun (Khand): These seem to be pretty well accepted, and I don't really know of many other options for sub-HQ. I guess you could throw the Grey Mountains into the Moria/Misty Mountains/Dol Guldur/Gundabad mess, but I really don't want to do that. Rhun itself seems necessary for the balance of power in the Northeast.
Isengard (Dunland): Isengard obviously needs to be included here, and Dunland seems to be the most natural sub-HQ. I mean, canonically, the Dunlendings were serving under Saruman. I also don't know of any other good options.
Barad-dur (Minas Morgul): Pretty straight-forward, I don't think any elaboration is needed.
Harad (Umbar): These also seem to be fairly well agreed upon.
With this setup, it seems to me that the HQs will be distributed fairly equally throughout Middle-earth. For Good, you have Bree in Eriador (one HQ), Mirkwood, Erebor, and Dale in Rhovanion (three HQs), and Rohan and Gondor in the South (two HQs). For Evil, you've got Moria for Eriador (one HQ, though it can realistically go to Rhovanion just as well) (actually, make that one and a half because of Gundabad), Dol Guldur and Rhun in Rhovanion (two HQs, plus one for Moria), and Isengard, Mordor, and Harad for the South (three HQs). This seems to be just the right amount of imbalance: not so much to necessarily grant certain areas to one side or the other or to pin down any HQs, but enough to force people to travel outside their immediate area at least a little bit.
The sub-HQs also seem to be placed fairly well this way. Most of them are spread out enough to actually separate them from their parent-HQs, and not so close that they simply merge with the main HQ or become useless as outposts (not all of them, though, such as the usual HQ-cluster in Rhovanion that we still have). None of them are cut off from their parent or are doomed to being captured, either.
You may also noticed that instead of just saying things like "Rohan" or "Mordor", I specified "Edoras" and "Barad-dur". While these aren't really necessary, it seems like better practice to me to do that so as to keep the HQs as concise as possible. Maybe it's just me, but it seems more professional to specify the actual capital where the troops are coming from and where the fortress is, as opposed to just naming the general region. Sadly, I don't know of any specific cities for Harad, Rhun, or Khand. If anyone knows of anything, let me know.
And I think lastly (I thought I had more I wanted to bring up, but if I did it's slipped my mind after all of that other stuff ), when it comes to troop limits, I think we should stick to what we had before with the standard MWE system. Twenty thousand MWE for each main HQ, and probably ten thousand for each sub-HQ. Maybe change those numbers a little bit (though I think they're perfectly good for our purposes), but keep the system the same with each HQ having the same worth, but split among different amounts of troops (so Elvish and Dwarvish standard troops being worth 1.33 MWE, and Orcish ones 0.8, making fifteen thousand or twenty-five thousand troopers for twenty thousand MWE, respectively). We have true HQ-size differences in the Fourth-age RP, so I think we should keep this one somewhat distinct by sticking with the old system (I know that The Hobbit RP certainly wasn't very distinct from the old LotR RP (before the resource system), just inferior ).
So if anyone actually got through all of that, those are my thoughts on the matters here. You can take it or leave it, or change it as you wish, but that's how I think things should be.
*Stares at new posts* What a bad time to go semi-inactive.
I don't completely understand this sub-HQ business. Are the sub-HQs effectively regions that provide larger amounts of MWE of a specific type?
Also, I'd like to raise the issue of several HQs.
Bree - is it really going to have more than a thousand men, at the very most, who will be able to fight?
Rivendell - See above, but change 'men' to 'elves'.
Esgaroth - maybe. We know it was rebuilt, and prospered, but with a third (I think) of it's townspeople lost in Smaug's attack, and a lot of the survivors moving to Dale, is it really going to be large enough to warrant an HQ within 50 or so years?
(Obviously only Good RPers 
