It is a game yet a very Relistict one to. If a troll gets hit by a steel brood head, from a longbow. He is going down. The movies are not Canon. Beside Legolas slays a troll in the Fellowship.
No I don't think they would. Why would they?
OK, two things. First off, their is a canon order in this. First is Tolkiens official works. Next is the movies. Then is other stuff like Games, Tolkien Gateway, etc. Pretty sure that's the entire canonicity order. And in the movies, their are many places where Gondorians attack the trolls with bows, and it takes several dozens of arrows, to fail or (rarely) to suceed. Legolas is 1. completely OP. Seriously, people called buffing someone in a movie "under the Legolas Effect". 2. He did it through the mouth. a half a foot away from the trolls skull and no. But through the mouth was a yes.
Because that they would be as powerful as Trolls the amount they would take out. Our only real reference is the Movies in this situation. Therefore, we will have 20,000 MWE that could be Trolls on the good side, when they don't need it in the first place! (seriously, No-one's complained about Trolls in the 4th Age RP.) And Evil can't fight Trolls. Ents, yes. but that's just half of it. what about Bears? I just don't like it.
The only thing wrong with that order is that Tolkien Gateway is derived from the books, and so it's authority level is equal with said books unless we find something wrong with what it says. We just use it as an quick reference when we don't have several days to find information directly from the books. The efficacy of any weapon really just depends on where it hits the enemy. Goliath was taken out by a single stone the size of someone's fist, but someone could survive a direct hit from an eighteen-inch naval gun. It's all about where they get hit. A hit to the head or some parts of the chest is almost guaranteed to finish off the victim, assuming it has the power to penetrate (and, in all honesty, most bows will if the hit is square and the armor isn't too rediculous). Meanwhile, a hit to the foot or arm will do nothing in regards to destroying them. Regular archers will take more than a few shots before they hit the right place, and so obviously not every Troll that gets hit in a volley will be destroyed immediately (although some will if there are enough). With more elite archers, the chances of hitting the right spot will go up, and a top-of-the-line archer has a good chance of getting a shot through the eye-holes of a helmet (or some other weak point in any armor), before the Troll in question reaches them.
Correction, we would have exactly ten thousand MWE of Ents and Huorns (ignoring losses) on the side of Good. I'm not sure what you're saying about Evil fighting Trolls, but if Good can fight Trolls and win, then Evil can fight Ents and win. The Beornings have no relation to the Trolls. They're much more of an equivalent to the Werewolves. In a normal one-on-one fight (whether armed or not), I honestly don't see a Beorning beating a Troll.
Yeah, Ents are stronger that Trolls in and of themselves, but they're also much less diverse. You've essentially got two kinds of Ents: Huorns which are really only good en masse against large groups of infantry, and regular Ents who are really just like stronger unarmed Trolls. With Trolls on the other hand, you can give them all sorts of weaponry to specialize them towards certain tasks, and thus have a bit more variety.
And that's an issue that I'm not going to get into right now. If you have an argument about a Troll's weaknesses again, come find me and I can try to give you my two cents on whatever the exact issue is. I can't really do much about that stuff right now, though.
I don't really see how it applies to the Skin-changers. Skin-changers would more likely be a counter to Werewolves (albeit very different, likely being stronger but less agile) than Trolls. I think the bigger issue with the Skin-changers is the question of whether they canonically had anywhere near the numbers to justify their own sub-HQ.
Dol Guldur is actually a pretty diverse HQ already. It's got Trolls and Orcs, plus probably Werewolves and maybe even Uruk-hai (I also, personally, wouldn't be too opposed to spider units). I don't see any lack of options for units, as that should be everything one really needs for a diverse army. But we'll see what Tuvok has to say.
I'm all for all of those units, plus Fell beasts.
If we added Fellbeasts, I think we'd have to put Eagles in there too.
Ok there seems to be a few misconceptions about the proposed Beorning HQ and I am posting this to clear this up.
1. The skinchangers are OP and will inbalince the RP.
A: NO. They are not op, they can change into a bear, and as a unit would function much like trolls. Note that they are not trolls though. Yet they would have much the same weekness as trolls.
Here is an example of a skinchanger unit IMO. IS NOT FINAL.
Skinchangers/Beornings. Worth 8 As human. Light to no armor, bear skin cloak, Two handed axe, sidearm.
As Bear. Thick fur, claws, teath.
I don't think I need to wright out a description for this yet. But tell me does that seem OP?
2. There is not enough Beornings to make up a HQ.
A: Yes there is enough Beornings to have a HQ on its own. HENCE why it would NOT just be Beornings. The HQ would be made up of Vales men with a maybe a few remains of the Eotheod.
Guardians of the Carrock. Worth 6 Plate armor, two-handed axes, buckler shields, sword, sidearm.
Skinchangers. Worth 8 See other post.
I will also have several arrcher and cavalry units. If we do have this HQ, I may see about having some non skinchanging bears, but I will hold off on that for now.
Any other questions about this proposed HQ?
At this point, I'm all for a Beorning sub-HQ for Dale. It would of course include regular Men for most of the basic units, but Beornings would make a great elite to distinguish the HQ. I think it's especially important if we give Werewolves to Gundabad, because having the Vales of the Anduin would act as an equivalent HQ to Gundabad (both are mostly made up of normal troops, but are boosted and distinguished by animal-like elites). I mean, virtually every HQ we have can be paired up with an HQ from the opposite side that is relatively similar (Bree and Moria with fairly low-key units, Dale and Dol Guldur which are diverse and have animal-elites, Rohan and Harad with good cavalry/mounts, Erebor and probably Isengard (maybe Rhun) with machinery, Gondor and Mordor with normal infantry, and Mirkwood and Rhun sort of left out ).
OK, two things. First off, their is a canon order in this. First is Tolkiens official works. Next is the movies. Then is other stuff like Games, Tolkien Gateway, etc. Pretty sure that's the entire canonicity order. And in the movies, their are many places where Gondorians attack the trolls with bows, and it takes several dozens of arrows, to fail or (rarely) to suceed. Legolas is 1. completely OP. Seriously, people called buffing someone in a movie "under the Legolas Effect". 2. He did it through the mouth. a half a foot away from the trolls skull and no. But through the mouth was a yes.
Because that they would be as powerful as Trolls the amount they would take out. Our only real reference is the Movies in this situation. Therefore, we will have 20,000 MWE that could be Trolls on the good side, when they don't need it in the first place! (seriously, No-one's complained about Trolls in the 4th Age RP.) And Evil can't fight Trolls. Ents, yes. but that's just half of it. what about Bears? I just don't like it.
The only thing wrong with that order is that Tolkien Gateway is derived from the books, and so it's authority level is equal with said books unless we find something wrong with what it says. We just use it as an quick reference when we don't have several days to find information directly from the books. The efficacy of any weapon really just depends on where it hits the enemy. Goliath was taken out by a single stone the size of someone's fist, but someone could survive a direct hit from an eighteen-inch naval gun. It's all about where they get hit. A hit to the head or some parts of the chest is almost guaranteed to finish off the victim, assuming it has the power to penetrate (and, in all honesty, most bows will if the hit is square and the armor isn't too rediculous). Meanwhile, a hit to the foot or arm will do nothing in regards to destroying them. Regular archers will take more than a few shots before they hit the right place, and so obviously not every Troll that gets hit in a volley will be destroyed immediately (although some will if there are enough). With more elite archers, the chances of hitting the right spot will go up, and a top-of-the-line archer has a good chance of getting a shot through the eye-holes of a helmet (or some other weak point in any armor), before the Troll in question reaches them.
Correction, we would have exactly ten thousand MWE of Ents and Huorns (ignoring losses) on the side of Good. I'm not sure what you're saying about Evil fighting Trolls, but if Good can fight Trolls and win, then Evil can fight Ents and win. The Beornings have no relation to the Trolls. They're much more of an equivalent to the Werewolves. In a normal one-on-one fight (whether armed or not), I honestly don't see a Beorning beating a Troll.
I agree. Thank you Kitkat.
I don't either. Its more that they would be used much in the same function, heavy shock troops that work great against pikes, and infantry but are week to missiles.
Ok there seems to be a few misconceptions about the proposed Beorning HQ and I am posting this to clear this up.
1. The skinchangers are OP and will inbalince the RP.
A: NO. They are not op, they can change into a bear, and as a unit would function much like trolls. Note that they are not trolls though. Yet they would have much the same weekness as trolls.
Here is an example of a skinchanger unit IMO. IS NOT FINAL.
Skinchangers/Beornings. Worth 8 As human. Light to no armor, bear skin cloak, Two handed axe, sidearm.
As Bear. Thick fur, claws, teath.
I don't think I need to wright out a description for this yet. But tell me does that seem OP?
2. There is not enough Beornings to make up a HQ.
A: Yes there is enough Beornings to have a HQ on its own. HENCE why it would NOT just be Beornings. The HQ would be made up of Vales men with a maybe a few remains of the Eotheod.
Guardians of the Carrock. Worth 6 Plate armor, two-handed axes, buckler shields, sword, sidearm.
Skinchangers. Worth 8 See other post.
I will also have several arrcher and cavalry units. If we do have this HQ, I may see about having some non skinchanging bears, but I will hold off on that for now.
Any other questions about this proposed HQ?
At this point, I'm all for a Beorning sub-HQ for Dale. It would of course include regular Men for most of the basic units, but Beornings would make a great elite to distinguish the HQ. I think it's especially important if we give Werewolves to Gundabad, because having the Vales of the Anduin would act as an equivalent HQ to Gundabad (both are mostly made up of normal troops, but are boosted and distinguished by animal-like elites). I mean, virtually every HQ we have can be paired up with an HQ from the opposite side that is relatively similar (Bree and Moria with fairly low-key units, Dale and Dol Guldur which are diverse and have animal-elites, Rohan and Harad with good cavalry/mounts, Erebor and probably Isengard (maybe Rhun) with machinery, Gondor and Mordor with normal infantry, and Mirkwood and Rhun sort of left out ).
I agree. It would be just about perfectly placed for balance too. Its surrounded by enemy HQ's which could try to conquer it, yet it could push out and help defeat one of the opposing HQ's.
I think that this would be Dale's best option for a sub HQ.
Ok there seems to be a few misconceptions about the proposed Beorning HQ and I am posting this to clear this up.
1. The skinchangers are OP and will inbalince the RP.
A: NO. They are not op, they can change into a bear, and as a unit would function much like trolls. Note that they are not trolls though. Yet they would have much the same weekness as trolls.
Here is an example of a skinchanger unit IMO. IS NOT FINAL.
Skinchangers/Beornings. Worth 8 As human. Light to no armor, bear skin cloak, Two handed axe, sidearm.
As Bear. Thick fur, claws, teath.
I don't think I need to wright out a description for this yet. But tell me does that seem OP?
2. There is not enough Beornings to make up a HQ.
A: Yes there is enough Beornings to have a HQ on its own. HENCE why it would NOT just be Beornings. The HQ would be made up of Vales men with a maybe a few remains of the Eotheod.
Guardians of the Carrock. Worth 6 Plate armor, two-handed axes, buckler shields, sword, sidearm.
Skinchangers. Worth 8 See other post.
I will also have several arrcher and cavalry units. If we do have this HQ, I may see about having some non skinchanging bears, but I will hold off on that for now.
Any other questions about this proposed HQ?
At this point, I'm all for a Beorning sub-HQ for Dale. It would of course include regular Men for most of the basic units, but Beornings would make a great elite to distinguish the HQ. I think it's especially important if we give Werewolves to Gundabad, because having the Vales of the Anduin would act as an equivalent HQ to Gundabad (both are mostly made up of normal troops, but are boosted and distinguished by animal-like elites). I mean, virtually every HQ we have can be paired up with an HQ from the opposite side that is relatively similar (Bree and Moria with fairly low-key units, Dale and Dol Guldur which are diverse and have animal-elites, Rohan and Harad with good cavalry/mounts, Erebor and probably Isengard (maybe Rhun) with machinery, Gondor and Mordor with normal infantry, and Mirkwood and Rhun sort of left out ).
Yep, all sounds good. Beornings would be awesome Oh wait, I have to fight them
So Harad is the cavalry? I thought that was Khand and Rhun? Harad is also the stealth troops then, correct?
One mod to rule them all and in the darkness ban them - Lord of the Mods "I am the Mod Reborn!" - masterlegobuilders I'm the real boss
Yeah, Ents are stronger that Trolls in and of themselves, but they're also much less diverse. You've essentially got two kinds of Ents: Huorns which are really only good en masse against large groups of infantry, and regular Ents who are really just like stronger unarmed Trolls. With Trolls on the other hand, you can give them all sorts of weaponry to specialize them towards certain tasks, and thus have a bit more variety.
And that's an issue that I'm not going to get into right now. If you have an argument about a Troll's weaknesses again, come find me and I can try to give you my two cents on whatever the exact issue is. I can't really do much about that stuff right now, though.
I don't really see how it applies to the Skin-changers. Skin-changers would more likely be a counter to Werewolves (albeit very different, likely being stronger but less agile) than Trolls. I think the bigger issue with the Skin-changers is the question of whether they canonically had anywhere near the numbers to justify their own sub-HQ.
Dol Guldur is actually a pretty diverse HQ already. It's got Trolls and Orcs, plus probably Werewolves and maybe even Uruk-hai (I also, personally, wouldn't be too opposed to spider units). I don't see any lack of options for units, as that should be everything one really needs for a diverse army. But we'll see what Tuvok has to say.
I'm all for all of those units, plus Fell beasts.
No flying units this time.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
Ok there seems to be a few misconceptions about the proposed Beorning HQ and I am posting this to clear this up.
1. The skinchangers are OP and will inbalince the RP.
A: NO. They are not op, they can change into a bear, and as a unit would function much like trolls. Note that they are not trolls though. Yet they would have much the same weekness as trolls.
Here is an example of a skinchanger unit IMO. IS NOT FINAL.
Skinchangers/Beornings. Worth 8 As human. Light to no armor, bear skin cloak, Two handed axe, sidearm.
As Bear. Thick fur, claws, teath.
I don't think I need to wright out a description for this yet. But tell me does that seem OP?
2. There is not enough Beornings to make up a HQ.
A: Yes there is enough Beornings to have a HQ on its own. HENCE why it would NOT just be Beornings. The HQ would be made up of Vales men with a maybe a few remains of the Eotheod.
Guardians of the Carrock. Worth 6 Plate armor, two-handed axes, buckler shields, sword, sidearm.
Skinchangers. Worth 8 See other post.
I will also have several arrcher and cavalry units. If we do have this HQ, I may see about having some non skinchanging bears, but I will hold off on that for now.
Any other questions about this proposed HQ?
That skin-changer feels overpriced. in his Bear form at least, a skin-changer is a beserker. it got hit by javelins and swords and still survived. yeah, nope. still seems OP, and you seem to be underpriced.
Non-skinchanging bears wouldn't work with the men, sorry.
I have a question: Why do you want this one so much? so I'll never reach my Goblins? Because right now, Rivendell is between me and it. Now you want a second Sub-HQ on it's doorstep?
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
OK, two things. First off, their is a canon order in this. First is Tolkiens official works. Next is the movies. Then is other stuff like Games, Tolkien Gateway, etc. Pretty sure that's the entire canonicity order. And in the movies, their are many places where Gondorians attack the trolls with bows, and it takes several dozens of arrows, to fail or (rarely) to suceed. Legolas is 1. completely OP. Seriously, people called buffing someone in a movie "under the Legolas Effect". 2. He did it through the mouth. a half a foot away from the trolls skull and no. But through the mouth was a yes.
Because that they would be as powerful as Trolls the amount they would take out. Our only real reference is the Movies in this situation. Therefore, we will have 20,000 MWE that could be Trolls on the good side, when they don't need it in the first place! (seriously, No-one's complained about Trolls in the 4th Age RP.) And Evil can't fight Trolls. Ents, yes. but that's just half of it. what about Bears? I just don't like it.
The only thing wrong with that order is that Tolkien Gateway is derived from the books, and so it's authority level is equal with said books unless we find something wrong with what it says. We just use it as an quick reference when we don't have several days to find information directly from the books. The efficacy of any weapon really just depends on where it hits the enemy. Goliath was taken out by a single stone the size of someone's fist, but someone could survive a direct hit from an eighteen-inch naval gun. It's all about where they get hit. A hit to the head or some parts of the chest is almost guaranteed to finish off the victim, assuming it has the power to penetrate (and, in all honesty, most bows will if the hit is square and the armor isn't too rediculous). Meanwhile, a hit to the foot or arm will do nothing in regards to destroying them. Regular archers will take more than a few shots before they hit the right place, and so obviously not every Troll that gets hit in a volley will be destroyed immediately (although some will if there are enough). With more elite archers, the chances of hitting the right spot will go up, and a top-of-the-line archer has a good chance of getting a shot through the eye-holes of a helmet (or some other weak point in any armor), before the Troll in question reaches them.
Correction, we would have exactly ten thousand MWE of Ents and Huorns (ignoring losses) on the side of Good. I'm not sure what you're saying about Evil fighting Trolls, but if Good can fight Trolls and win, then Evil can fight Ents and win. The Beornings have no relation to the Trolls. They're much more of an equivalent to the Werewolves. In a normal one-on-one fight (whether armed or not), I honestly don't see a Beorning beating a Troll.
But their are LOTS (and I repeat LOTS) of examples of Arrows penetrating Troll-skin just enough to stick in, but not enough to hurt the troll. Legolas was 2 feet away from a Morian Cave Troll's brain, and he still failed to fully penetrate the skin. Heck, even good armor for shoulder-padding and a Breastplate, those can stop an arrow (according to numerous recourses on YouTube and Google.).
OK, you've convinced me Beornings are not OP. HOWEVER, do we really need another Sub-HQ right by the High Pass? Right now, we've already got Rivendell and the Misty Mountains. So having a third sounds a bit annoying. I mean, It'll be a constant battle spot (and this wasn't one in the Old RP, so don't say it would be anyway, it might not) but with three. Well, the Goblins will try to escape out of the Pass to go help fight, and Rivendell and Beornings will defend their lands.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
Ok there seems to be a few misconceptions about the proposed Beorning HQ and I am posting this to clear this up.
1. The skinchangers are OP and will inbalince the RP.
A: NO. They are not op, they can change into a bear, and as a unit would function much like trolls. Note that they are not trolls though. Yet they would have much the same weekness as trolls.
Here is an example of a skinchanger unit IMO. IS NOT FINAL.
Skinchangers/Beornings. Worth 8 As human. Light to no armor, bear skin cloak, Two handed axe, sidearm.
As Bear. Thick fur, claws, teath.
I don't think I need to wright out a description for this yet. But tell me does that seem OP?
2. There is not enough Beornings to make up a HQ.
A: Yes there is enough Beornings to have a HQ on its own. HENCE why it would NOT just be Beornings. The HQ would be made up of Vales men with a maybe a few remains of the Eotheod.
Guardians of the Carrock. Worth 6 Plate armor, two-handed axes, buckler shields, sword, sidearm.
Skinchangers. Worth 8 See other post.
I will also have several arrcher and cavalry units. If we do have this HQ, I may see about having some non skinchanging bears, but I will hold off on that for now.
Any other questions about this proposed HQ?
At this point, I'm all for a Beorning sub-HQ for Dale. It would of course include regular Men for most of the basic units, but Beornings would make a great elite to distinguish the HQ. I think it's especially important if we give Werewolves to Gundabad, because having the Vales of the Anduin would act as an equivalent HQ to Gundabad (both are mostly made up of normal troops, but are boosted and distinguished by animal-like elites). I mean, virtually every HQ we have can be paired up with an HQ from the opposite side that is relatively similar (Bree and Moria with fairly low-key units, Dale and Dol Guldur which are diverse and have animal-elites, Rohan and Harad with good cavalry/mounts, Erebor and probably Isengard (maybe Rhun) with machinery, Gondor and Mordor with normal infantry, and Mirkwood and Rhun sort of left out ).
eeh, this isn't quite true. Moria isn't going to have fairly Low-key units, it's going to have a large number of slightly modified types of tanks, and Isengard is probably going to be low-key units more than anything. Also, Moria does have trolls as well. Doesn't change much, but that's what those HQ's currently are, with Isengard being more low-key than Moria. Moria will have lots of goblins, but they'll be inside tanks most of the time.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
At this point, I'm all for a Beorning sub-HQ for Dale. It would of course include regular Men for most of the basic units, but Beornings would make a great elite to distinguish the HQ. I think it's especially important if we give Werewolves to Gundabad, because having the Vales of the Anduin would act as an equivalent HQ to Gundabad (both are mostly made up of normal troops, but are boosted and distinguished by animal-like elites). I mean, virtually every HQ we have can be paired up with an HQ from the opposite side that is relatively similar (Bree and Moria with fairly low-key units, Dale and Dol Guldur which are diverse and have animal-elites, Rohan and Harad with good cavalry/mounts, Erebor and probably Isengard (maybe Rhun) with machinery, Gondor and Mordor with normal infantry, and Mirkwood and Rhun sort of left out ).
Yep, all sounds good. Beornings would be awesome Oh wait, I have to fight them
So Harad is the cavalry? I thought that was Khand and Rhun? Harad is also the stealth troops then, correct?
As far as I know, none are renowned for Stealth Troops. Khand (not Harad) is cavalry and Variags, and Harad is Oliphaunts.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
Oh wait, I have to fight them 
I thought that was Khand and Rhun? Harad is also the stealth troops then, correct? 
