Post by MockingbirdInc on Aug 18, 2019 4:27:22 GMT
I don't like Season 11. (Well, at least what's so-far come out. ) I see a lot of people really enjoying this season and I can't really understand why. If you like the season, that's great, actually. I'm glad you were able to enjoy it! I definitely don't want to disrespect anybody's opinion, and much less disrespect the creators who are working hard on this project. I'll give you my reasons for not liking it, you can tell me why you like it, and we can discuss.
I'll need multiple posts to fully discuss my entire argument. If you're reading this and my other posts haven't been moderated, my argument probably won't seem strong - because it's not complete yet.
NOTE: Contains spoilers. Major plot points will be kept in jammers, but this still could ruin your viewing experience.
The creators specifically confirmed this new season wasn't a spin-off - but, man, it definitely feels like one. Honestly, as a kid's show, I think it's pretty great. It's pretty cute with some fun characters - but for Ninjago standards, it's . . . ehhhgh. :/
I think one of the main things that bothers me is how out-of-whack many things are, especially the characters. Honestly, I could probably go back and nitpick a bunch of small details like the pest I am, but I'll just go over a couple examples.
Firstly - the ninja laugh at the notion that Wu could defeat them. . . . um, where have you guys been for the past ten seasons?! They now quite well he's one of the strongest members of the team and is legitimately the reason any of them ever stood a fighting chance. Another thing I remember standing out to me was the ninja visiting Killow's cell can getting angry at him for channeling his emotions through art and remaining innocent. That's one of the most selfish things you could see out of characters who used to be so previously valiant. Reading back at this, yeah, it sounds petty, and I am exaggerating a bit for comedic emphasis. That said, what really bothers me is the excess of traits like this. So many times in the series, these characters we've spent years properly developing have somehow taken all of these traits and character arcs, and tossed them all out the window.
Post by MockingbirdInc on Aug 18, 2019 5:14:39 GMT
Something else I didn't have room to mention in the first post: I understand this is Bragi Schut's first independent season. I empathize with him - picking up such an elaborate show has to be hard, and he could have done way worse, probably. That said, he was still a part of what I believe to be the show's greatest seasons, 8 and 9, and also didn't do that badly with S10 either.
But, anyway, back to mindless ranting.
I think the way the show's general execution is pretty awkward. I'm aware this is the first season with the new studio, so it makes sense they would be getting their sea-legs at the moment - however, the quality of the show still stands. More specifically, the comedic timing and delivery rarely works.
Now, Ninjago has always been an imperfect show, and it's no stranger to having jokes fall flat. That said, my main issue is how few of the jokes actually deliver. Especially in a joke-filled season, they very frequently take a joke that could work and then deliver it in a way that really isn't all that funny. Jay freaking out about Clutch's fake eye patch is kinda funny, but is simultaneously too loud to be a subtle joke and too subtle to be a loud joke, resulting in just odd flatness. The ninja getting attacked by the chicken might be funny if we had something against these characters - but we don't. As mentioned earlier, it ignores our previous bonding with the show's protagonists and declares "HAH THEYRE GETTING HURT AND MISERABLY EMBARRASSED THATS FUNNY " Now, comedy is subjective, but I care about the well-being and feelings of these characters. Watching them in emotional and physical pain isn't enjoyable, much less humorous. (Now, maybe this is because I write a lot of jokes and I've become especially nitpicky with comedy. I'm willing to accept that. )
Another grievance of mine is that we've seen most of this before. Kai faltering out and calling himself useless when he loses his powers wouldn't be a bad thing by any means - if we didn't just see Lloyd go through the exact same character arc only two seasons before.
. . . dang, I thought this was gonna be short. xD TBC again.
Post by MockingbirdInc on Aug 18, 2019 5:24:26 GMT
Another thing that bothers me is the constant trope of Wu revealing skeletons in the closet of the past he should’ve mentioned earlier. When the ninja suspected Garmadon was the Great Deceiver, I legitimately noted to my sisters “at least it’s not Wu again,” only to be thoroughly disappointed.
Also, snake people again? How many times are we gonna see this?! The third time was already enough. Their motives aren’t original either - they’re angry at the surface dwellers for locking them underground and now they want revenge. Like, as I said, if this was a reboot, I might be able to accept this. Recycling material isn’t unheard of for reboots - but it’s not. As a natural continuation of Ninjago’s narrative, this is pretty frustrating.
Heck, frustrating plot points is another one of the things about this that I don’t like. Take the Explorer’s Club, for example. It’s painful to watch the ninja be so ridiculously clumsy - A herd of cattle could probably act with more grace than these well-trained ninja with YEARS of experience. Mainly, the city’s being attacked and bombarded by snakes. These are the ninja who have saved New Ninjago City too many times to count. WHY are we still treating them like random loons - or, better yes, WHY are we supposed to be entertaining or enthralled by watching them struggle to get some library card? Conflict is a good story element; there’s no doubt there. What makes conflict exciting is trying to figure out HOW our heroes my figure out a tough, daunting obstacle. The problem with this conflict is that isn’t nothing but frustrating. As already established literally a hundred times in the show’s title cards - you’re ninja. If you can’t enter, you break in. The conflict can be really easily solved, so the entire half-episode can just be solved by the staff not being idiots or the ninja not being idiots.
. . . TBC again, thankfully I only have one left. And I'm actually gonna have good stuff to say at the end of it, don't worry.
{Spoiler}{Bigger Spoilers} Wu knows what he’s doing. You know not to meddle in his affairs by now, especially with something as series as losing Zane. You also well know the user is only corrupted WHEN they’re holding the staff. You’re all older and presumably smarter than me, but even I, some idiotic teenaer would no better than to gag Wu and tell him he’s corrupted when he’s 1) no longer holding the object of corruption and 2) no loner has dem spoopy glowing eyes. I honestly find it excruciating to watch.
Now, I don't think this season is devoid of goodness. While I think the animation/lighting still has a couple kinks to work out, some of the action scenes turned out looking really good. While the fights themselves may not be as strong as some SoG/Hunted stuff, the cinematography is excellent and I praise it.
To add to how controversial my thoughts already are, I also kind of liked the “filler” episodes of Lil’ Nelson and the News broadcast. Once again, it’s VERY different from Ninjago’s vibe, but so clearly isn’t trying to be Ninjago that I think I’m able to take it for what it is and actually enjoy it.
Another thing I liked was Wu and Garmadon’s flashback. Yeah, I said I was tired of Wu’s whole “secret past” trope, but the episode itself was definitely one I enjoyed more. It was great to see their young selves again, and, for the most part, young Wu actually wasn’t a total idiot and handled things pretty diplomatically. (Of course, the ninja had to ruin it by being angry at him, even though he actually saved Ninjago and the ninja aren’t exactly perfect little angels themselves - but, erm, this is supposed to be the positive part. )
At least of what I remember right now, I’m pretty sure that’s all I have to say about Season 11 - but, now, what’re your thoughts? I’ve given a probably-too-long argument for why I don’t like it but I wanna hear from you. Do you agree, and if not, why? I’d be happy to hear your reasoning for your enjoyment; maybe you can eevn change my mind about things.
Thanks for taking the time to read all this; now let’s talk! ^-^
-last edited on Aug 18, 2019 6:03:47 GMT by Gnuehchcaz
Post by Gnuehchcaz on Aug 18, 2019 6:01:15 GMT
I appreciate your honest thoughts about Season 11. It certainly has been a very different style of season compared to what we've seen before.
I haven't finished the whole season yet, but I could tell that from the first episode that it was not going to be the same as what I've been used to seeing since I first saw it in 2011.
I have a feeling the main reason why is because Ninjago is more than 10 seasons old, which means new generations of kids getting into Ninjago have 10 seasons (over 100 episodes) to catch up on if they want to get the real characterization of the main characters, so I suppose that they kind of restarted the characters so that new viewers don't have to have any background knowledge of what's happened before, and any connection to the past is probably just a reclarified memory.
I think now it's just one of those things where the number dedicated fans who's been watching for years like us are dwindling, the amount of new fans have increased, and so the balance of story has changed toward the new fans who don't start with Episode 1, which is disappointing, but I'm not sure what they can do at that point if Ninjago is to try to survive for long.
Post by metaknightfan4 on Aug 18, 2019 14:59:43 GMT
I actually agree. While I haven't watched much, I have read a healthy batch of spoilers, and am frustrated myself. The Ninja becoming useless brats AGAIN can be annoying. Not to mention Wu having yet another dark secret that I honestly felt he handled pretty well. I actually haven't really watched since Season 7, but I do know the general plot, and I have to agree with you. (Not to mention, for a "long tangent" like you seem to think that was, you clearly thought it out well.)
Here's my problem. The original seasons of Ninjago (seasons 1 and 2) went from fighting snakes, who weren't really a threat, to fighting Garmadon with the Mega Weapon, a serious threat, to fighting the Overlord, a life or death threat.
The threat level got progressively higher as it went on.
Originally Ninjago was supposed to be cancelled, so the writers couldn't really create more of a threat than the Overlord. However, the ninja still dealt with serious threats.
Another thing to note is how interesting the backstory of each villain was. For example, Chen was a pawn of the Overlord used to begin the Serpentine War which ultimately led to the "final battle".
So, seasons 3-6 had powerful antagonists with interesting backstories, each playing an important role in Ninjago's history.
Then, in seasons 7-10, they sort of repeated the first seasons, in that it went from snakes to Garmadon to some ancient evil older than Ninjago itself. And of course seasons 8 and 9 took on an extremely dark atmosphere which made the show ten times better.
Then, instead of doing what seasons 3-6 did and having interesting villains with interesting backstories, they went straight from Oni to... snakes. Snakes who are mad because some kid trapped them in a pyramid. It also completely abandoned the dark atmosphere.
I appreciate your honest thoughts about Season 11. It certainly has been a very different style of season compared to what we've seen before.
I haven't finished the whole season yet, but I could tell that from the first episode that it was not going to be the same as what I've been used to seeing since I first saw it in 2011.
I have a feeling the main reason why is because Ninjago is more than 10 seasons old, which means new generations of kids getting into Ninjago have 10 seasons (over 100 episodes) to catch up on if they want to get the real characterization of the main characters, so I suppose that they kind of restarted the characters so that new viewers don't have to have any background knowledge of what's happened before, and any connection to the past is probably just a reclarified memory.
I think now it's just one of those things where the number dedicated fans who's been watching for years like us are dwindling, the amount of new fans have increased, and so the balance of story has changed toward the new fans who don't start with Episode 1, which is disappointing, but I'm not sure what they can do at that point if Ninjago is to try to survive for long.
You have a great point. Maybe it's just my mindset and I should just, despite what the creators say, set this aside as something new. Maybe I'll enjoy it more or maybe I'll just resolve that I just personally don't like it.
I actually agree. While I haven't watched much, I have read a healthy batch of spoilers, and am frustrated myself. The Ninja becoming useless brats AGAIN can be annoying. Not to mention Wu having yet another dark secret that I honestly felt he handled pretty well. I actually haven't really watched since Season 7, but I do know the general plot, and I have to agree with you. (Not to mention, for a "long tangent" like you seem to think that was, you clearly thought it out well.)
Well, I wrote it at late night so I was afraid it'd be something stupid, but I guess I've dwelled it over in my mind enough it made some form of coherency. Thanks for pitching in, though!
I will mention, though, if you have the time, SoG and Hunted are some of my favorite seasons and I highly recommend them.
Here's my problem. The original seasons of Ninjago (seasons 1 and 2) went from fighting snakes, who weren't really a threat, to fighting Garmadon with the Mega Weapon, a serious threat, to fighting the Overlord, a life or death threat.
The threat level got progressively higher as it went on.
Originally Ninjago was supposed to be cancelled, so the writers couldn't really create more of a threat than the Overlord. However, the ninja still dealt with serious threats.
Another thing to note is how interesting the backstory of each villain was. For example, Chen was a pawn of the Overlord used to begin the Serpentine War which ultimately led to the "final battle".
So, seasons 3-6 had powerful antagonists with interesting backstories, each playing an important role in Ninjago's history.
Then, in seasons 7-10, they sort of repeated the first seasons, in that it went from snakes to Garmadon to some ancient evil older than Ninjago itself. And of course seasons 8 and 9 took on an extremely dark atmosphere which made the show ten times better.
Then, instead of doing what seasons 3-6 did and having interesting villains with interesting backstories, they went straight from Oni to... snakes. Snakes who are mad because some kid trapped them in a pyramid. It also completely abandoned the dark atmosphere.
I don't get it. Help me.
My siblings and I have wondered if it's the network/marketing trying to re-brand and appeal to a younger audience. Of course, you can still keep a light atmosphere while keeping a compelling and semi-dark narrative - Tournament of Elements. I don't know if they're incompetently trying to re-create something like this or if they really thought it was a good idea to go full 180 on the show's vibe. I mean, I've seen a younger audience enjoy this, so I guess it technically works. Ninjago was created for marketing purposes, anyway - but it's just really disappointing to see this, as an older fan. :/
I appreciate your honest thoughts about Season 11. It certainly has been a very different style of season compared to what we've seen before.
I haven't finished the whole season yet, but I could tell that from the first episode that it was not going to be the same as what I've been used to seeing since I first saw it in 2011.
I have a feeling the main reason why is because Ninjago is more than 10 seasons old, which means new generations of kids getting into Ninjago have 10 seasons (over 100 episodes) to catch up on if they want to get the real characterization of the main characters, so I suppose that they kind of restarted the characters so that new viewers don't have to have any background knowledge of what's happened before, and any connection to the past is probably just a reclarified memory.
I think now it's just one of those things where the number dedicated fans who's been watching for years like us are dwindling, the amount of new fans have increased, and so the balance of story has changed toward the new fans who don't start with Episode 1, which is disappointing, but I'm not sure what they can do at that point if Ninjago is to try to survive for long.
You have a great point. Maybe it's just my mindset and I should just, despite what the creators say, set this aside as something new. Maybe I'll enjoy it more or maybe I'll just resolve that I just personally don't like it.
Thanks, you made some good points too.
It's alright. You can enjoy it or dislike it however you please. I'm sure every single season there's always people who like it and don't like it, especially toward Seasons 8, 9, and 10 when there were major changes.
Here's my problem. The original seasons of Ninjago (seasons 1 and 2) went from fighting snakes, who weren't really a threat, to fighting Garmadon with the Mega Weapon, a serious threat, to fighting the Overlord, a life or death threat.
The threat level got progressively higher as it went on.
Originally Ninjago was supposed to be cancelled, so the writers couldn't really create more of a threat than the Overlord. However, the ninja still dealt with serious threats.
Another thing to note is how interesting the backstory of each villain was. For example, Chen was a pawn of the Overlord used to begin the Serpentine War which ultimately led to the "final battle".
So, seasons 3-6 had powerful antagonists with interesting backstories, each playing an important role in Ninjago's history.
Then, in seasons 7-10, they sort of repeated the first seasons, in that it went from snakes to Garmadon to some ancient evil older than Ninjago itself. And of course seasons 8 and 9 took on an extremely dark atmosphere which made the show ten times better.
Then, instead of doing what seasons 3-6 did and having interesting villains with interesting backstories, they went straight from Oni to... snakes. Snakes who are mad because some kid trapped them in a pyramid. It also completely abandoned the dark atmosphere.
I don't get it. Help me.
My siblings and I have wondered if it's the network/marketing trying to re-brand and appeal to a younger audience. Of course, you can still keep a light atmosphere while keeping a compelling and semi-dark narrative - Tournament of Elements. I don't know if they're incompetently trying to re-create something like this or if they really thought it was a good idea to go full 180 on the show's vibe. I mean, I've seen a younger audience enjoy this, so I guess it technically works. Ninjago was created for marketing purposes, anyway - but it's just really disappointing to see this, as an older fan. :/
Even though seasons 8-10 were a bit dark, it was still a kids show, just enjoyable for older audiences as well. It seems like they wanted us to stop watching after season 10, and let only new audiences watch season 11.
Another thing I don't understand is that when everyone was angry over season 8's new character designs (personally I loved them from the start), the writers said they changed them so the kids introduced to Ninjago by the movie wouldn't be confused when watching the show. They made it seem like season 8 was a big change from previous seasons, and that every season from then on would be like season 8. I, of course, was happy to hear that after how amazing season 8 was. Now, in season 11... they're making it sound like season 8 wasn't supposed to appeal to new audiences at all, and that it was just a special treat for us older audiences. I don't know why they would change Ninjago's tone so drastically, when they just did with season 8. It's not like the past few seasons weren't successful, in fact, I would say they were the most successful seasons since seasons 1-3.
It really just confuses me. I don't know why they decided to change Ninjago when it had just become so good. I guess season 10 was just supposed to be a finale for us older viewers, while season 11 is a beginning for the younger viewers.
Post by TheNewIceNinja on Aug 19, 2019 2:18:55 GMT
I think you make excellent points, honestly. I can only hope that Ninjago doesn't turn into the next Star Wars with its rapidly tarnishing reputation. At least we aren't being called 'man-babies'... yet
Take the episode where the ninja broke into the Explorer's Club for example (I feel like that entire episode was completely forced).
-Why do they keep saying the 'second' Scroll of Forbidden Spinjitzu? One, it's not the second, it could be the first, for all we know, it's not like the First Spinjitzu Master labeled them. And two, nobody at the EC bats an eye when told there's a SECOND scroll. There's no, "Oh, there's another? We thought it was the only one! We should look into this!"
-I've never once seen Nya act as irrationally as that, she's supposed to be the one to stop Kai from doing that.
-"This is a stealth mission, no weapons," or whatever Lloyd said, since when has that ever been a thing? The ninja have done stealth missions before and kept their weapons, that's not an issue here.
-The method they used to drop down the vent, did they expect that was actually going to work? Please, they can't be that dumb. A small piece of Ice is not enough to hold even one person's weight, let alone multiple.
-That relic that sucked everything into it (can't remember the name, which is another thing that I will get to in a sec), that was unnecessary. And never once did it cross anyone's mind that maybe they accidentally doomed the whole thing by possibly sucking in the Scroll of Forrbidden Spinjitzu.
-Also, I just don't feel like they emphasised any one of those relics enough to feel important at all. I mean, watch everything with the mirror (which was totally a reference to the Mirror of Erised from Harry Potter) never get mentioned or used as plot relevance, thus forgotten.
-Not to mention all the stereotypes about old people, that was pretty rude, not gonna lie. "Oh chap" this, and "Cheerio" that. I got one for ya, "Respect your elders".
If you like the season, that's great, actually. I'm glad you were able to enjoy it! I definitely don't want to disrespect anybody's opinion, and much less disrespect the creators who are working hard on this project. I'll give you my reasons for not liking it, you can tell me why you like it, and we can discuss. ![[derp]](http://storage.proboards.com/6672327/images/YqNTPqyQUocVMYXZgUAI.png)
" Now, comedy is subjective, but I care about the well-being and feelings of these characters. Watching them in emotional and physical pain isn't enjoyable, much less humorous.
And I'm actually gonna have good stuff to say at the end of it, don't worry. 
