Yes, yes, you do. Just for your attack on my Black Numenorions JK. But in my mind you are. Thats one of the things that makes you a good general and a worthy foe.
I was saying the uber ones that I know. You can be critical-It's practically required to be a long-term player here. However, Kitkat seems to spend his days criticizing strategies, unitry etc. from this RP. And I'm half as bad.
Bobby is one of the longest lasting RPers here, he was here before you, myself, and maybe EE. Though KK does critize almost everything here. Its just if something passes his instruction he doesn't post anything. Goats pretty bad at that too. You should have seen the A and U for the old RP. It was full of debates between Argh, KK, and Dre.
Has any one heard of the mbti?
BTW, what do ya'll think of my new picture.
Dre and I got into some lengthy debates. I still get tense thinking about it. :tounge:
OK, well it appears that Great Beasts and Oliphaunts were actually the same thing (I believe it was Bobbywan that had a quote), so I've changed them into Oliphaunts (adjusted size and worth.)
It's working. Now that It's Oliphaunts, the heaviest Normal ballistae from the old list. Remember that it's on the back of an Oliphaunt now, and the Spreaders is about that size as well.
Is that a Website? Whenever people Mention it, I always think it's a book. I don't know why.
Once again, don't be hasty. Check out Kitkat's long post first. He makes some good points in there.
And even if we do agree that Oliphaunts and Great Beasts are the same thing, I don't think that automatically means you get Oliphaunts. Many Haradrim were at that battle, so the Mordorians probably just borrowed some Oliphaunts to drive their machines.
Tolkien Gateway is a website, I recommend looking it up.
We have sees good points for both sides. Though it may not be the most canonical thing to do. I propose a vote on it. In the intress of the RP I think this will be the quickest and best thing to do. What do you think.
I'm personally of the opponion that if great beasts are real, Mordor should get them. But Mordor should not get Mumakil.
Bobby is one of the longest lasting RPers here, he was here before you, myself, and maybe EE. Though KK does critize almost everything here. Its just if something passes his instruction he doesn't post anything. Goats pretty bad at that too. You should have seen the A and U for the old RP. It was full of debates between Argh, KK, and Dre.
Has any one heard of the mbti?
BTW, what do ya'll think of my new picture.
I know that Bobby is really critical at times, and yeah he was longer than me. Goat may be bad, but he seems to never have bad arguments. And I did see the old AU topic:I only checked it when I posted units for a reason.
No.
It's preatty cool.
Then should he be on the list? Except with you. It was full of debates. I think it should have been called "Debates about the units of the army's of middle earth. Featuring, Dre, Argh, and Lion."
Its a personalty test.
Thanks, I think it portrays the look of a Fallen Numenorion/Haradrim Lord. Don't you?
Well, I think that settles it. There no Great Beasts then. Sorry MM but we can't just make monsters in the RP .
Ehh, I don't know about that. Unfortunately, the wording and punctuation of Bobby's quote isn't quite precise enough for us to put them being separate out of the question, although it does allow that to be the case.
Part of the problem here is that "great beasts" obviously isn't a proper name, but just a general term traditionally used in reference to a specific creature (at least when the movies are considered) that actually could apply to many other creatures (similar to "fell beast"). It's clear in the quote that "great beasts" are being used in the general sense, but it's not clear that the Oliphaunts are the great beasts questioned.
But so, there are two ways that this quote can be read, each of them equally likely in my opinion. The first way (in simplified form) is: "There came great beasts like moving houses: the Mumakil of Harad dragging great towers and engines." And in this interpretation the first part is written picture of the situation as seen, and the second part is the actuality of the situation. That would make great beasts the same as the Oliphaunts. The second way (which may be harder to portray in a way that is consistently interpreted properly) is (again simplified): "There came great beasts like moving houses, the Mumakil of Harad dragged great towers and engines." And here (however poorly I may have shown it) the great beasts and the Oliphaunts are two separate things: there came great beasts (that were probably not known or named amongst the general populace of the Free Peoples), and there came Oliphaunts. Again, the phrasing of the quote sadly does not eliminate either of these options, and it (standing alone) can be read either way just as well.
As the context is always important in a situation like this, I also don't think we should leave it out (as it sometimes can make clear how a specific section is to be read). Here's the surrounding information in the book (taken directly from my copy): "Ever since the middle night the great assault had gone on. The drums rolled. To the north and to the south company upon company of the enemy pressed to the walls. There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines. Yet their Captain cared not greatly what they did or how many might be slain: their purpose was only to test the strength of the defence and to keep the men of Gondor busy in many places. It was against the Gate that he would throw his heaviest weight." And unfortunately this doesn't make everything clear either, however I believe it does still contribute a bit to the issue at hand. Personally, the context here makes me be inclined to believe that the great beasts and Oliphaunts are two separate things, although it doesn't rule out the option that they're the same. The phrasing of the surrounding sentences seems indicative of a certain idea or thought that was to be portrayed in the writing. The picture that the context paints in my mind is one of great scale, of numerous immense powers all descending upon Minas Tirith, and including foreign and unfamiliar threats. And yet despite the enormity of all of this and of the danger it posed to Gondor, it was but a distraction to Sauron. The idea that the great beasts being separate from the Oliphaunts seems to magnify this overlying theme as it shows that not only were there Oliphaunts, but other large creatures too. It just being Oliphaunts, as great of a threat as they would be, simply doesn't seem as grand. If the great beasts and Oliphaunts were intended to be the same thing, I would expect a different sort of scene of them coming in. For example, if this quote was part of the description of the arriving Haradrim army, it would make perfect sense for the great beasts described to be the Oliphaunts mentioned. These two being one unit would fit much more smoothly if they were introduced as part of a single new army coming in, as opposed to the scene of numerous armies engaged in battle.
Diving deeper into literary analysis, there also appears to be a theme within the phrasing itself. If you look closely, you'll see that Tolkien mentions each aspect of this threat in pairs, or in two parts. They are attacked from the north and the south, company upon company, great beasts and Oliphaunts, huge towers and engines. Each of half of these pairs are related in some way, but they're each their own individual entities. The wording implies that Minas Tirith isn't simply surrounded, but that different armies or at least divisions are attacking from both directions. Each company is a portion of the larger army, but still distinguished from other companies. Oliphaunts approach, yet at the same time there are other great beasts that the Gondorians do not recognize. And finally there are immense towers, but other siege engines too. Combining the great beasts and Oliphaunts, although it would not affect the flow of the presentation, ruins the theme in the writing.
Again, none of these things that I've brought up rule out either option for sure. But with that said, the theme and implications of the context make me inclined to believe that the great beasts and Oliphaunts are two separate things (although the "great beasts" may possibly consist of multiple kinds of creatures) when applied to the particular quote in question. That, combined with the more clear and solid (if less authoritative) presentation of a separate kind of "Great Beast" in the movies causes me to side with there being a "Great Beast" that is different from an Oliphaunt.
Oh, and sorry if I'm being a bit more argumentative than usual (not that I'm sure if I can be considering MM's comment ), or if my arguments are unusual or hard to follow. I'm running off of about twelve hours of sleep for the past three days and just got home from a debate tournament, so my tired yet argument-oriented brain might be picking at straws and trying to build a whole bridge out of them, but explaining how I get the bridge in the most vague and unclear way possible, likely including typos and omitted words in the process. As you can probably see, one of the obvious symptoms of this state that I'm in is excessive rambling about fairly small matters (like the fact that I'm rambling ) and talking about them in ways that will probably only end up making sense to me, and only when I'm in this state. I'll probably have a completely different view once I've gotten enough sleep and have gotten out of debate-mode. You guys will have to let me know if anything I said in this post makes sense. Or if any of you actually made it through my entire. . . Thing.
I read your whole post, and I disagree with it. :tounge: Almost your whole post is based on indirect evidence, what would be grander, what you context you think Tolkien would have written in such and such a case, themes you see. IT's not based on the actual line, which is, as you have it in your post:
There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines.
There is no "and", just a comma. So, the natural reading of this sentence is that the Mumakil are the great beasts, the second part of the sentence clarifies the first.
Now, would having other creatures be more grand? Perhaps. But the scale is grand enough, that we don't need to read the text in odd ways to find other elements to make it more grand. The text creates the meaning which creates the theme. We shouldn't take an overall theme and use it to alter the meaning of individual lines. You could wind up concluding there was an army of dragons if you went down that route.
As for your paragraph about A Haradrim army, I see no reason why they'd fit better in that context. Describing them as great beasts doesn't really depend on the army in whose service they are. Unless you are simply associating "multiple armies" with Multiple "beasts" and one army with one beast, which doesn't follow. Just because there are two or one of one thing doesn't mean some other thing matches those numbers. If it did it would make no sense, and be boring.
And for a theme of two and two, there is a difference. North and south. Company upon Company, towers and engines. The words and and upon note a difference. There is no such word between great beasts and oliphuants. And companies are separate groups of the same thing.
And anyway, this is all indirect, as I said before.
Oh, and in the Two Towers, the Oliphaunt is referred to as "the great beast" so Tolkien did describe Mumuakil that way.
OK, I had a large quote off of Kitkat's giant speel, but it did something and it lost it. Since it was mostly confirming stuff and bringing up problems in long eloquent ways, I'll summarize:
Tolkien was a Literary Analyst, and as such he would have done what Kitkat says on purpose, making it quite clear that their is some form of Great Beast (One of the quotes does mention that it was Oliphaunts pulling things, and Great beasts were their as well). As such, we need to decide what/who gets these "Great Beasts". Do we bring back fell Beasts? What creatures were their? their were "Great Monsters like towers of defense" (Used in a similar setting to Kitkat's quote, next to "Horses ran from the Mumakil, and the Easterlings rallied to them)
So, do we reset (even if nothing has really happened yet) and figure this out completely, or do we let the A&U topic deal with it on a case by case basis?
{JAMMERS! -EE/KK- ONLY!} Would a large floating 'fortress' use NWE? It would not move atleast on its own. I plan on using it for defience of the HQ not for attacking. It would be pulled out port by tugs and then fastened in place. Its more of a barge than anything.
d only when I'm in this state. I'll probably have a completely different view once I've gotten enough sleep and have gotten out of debate-mode. You guys will have to let me know if anything I said in this post makes sense. Or if any of you actually made it through my entire. . . Thing.
I read your whole post, and I disagree with it. :tounge: Almost your whole post is based on indirect evidence, what would be grander, what you context you think Tolkien would have written in such and such a case, themes you see. IT's not based on the actual line, which is, as you have it in your post:
There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines.
There is no "and", just a comma. So, the natural reading of this sentence is that the Mumakil are the great beasts, the second part of the sentence clarifies the first.
Now, would having other creatures be more grand? Perhaps. But the scale is grand enough, that we don't need to read the text in odd ways to find other elements to make it more grand. The text creates the meaning which creates the theme. We shouldn't take an overall theme and use it to alter the meaning of individual lines. You could wind up concluding there was an army of dragons if you went down that route.
As for your paragraph about A Haradrim army, I see no reason why they'd fit better in that context. Describing them as great beasts doesn't really depend on the army in whose service they are. Unless you are simply associating "multiple armies" with Multiple "beasts" and one army with one beast, which doesn't follow. Just because there are two or one of one thing doesn't mean some other thing matches those numbers. If it did it would make no sense, and be boring.
And for a theme of two and two, there is a difference. North and south. Company upon Company, towers and engines. The words and and upon note a difference. There is no such word between great beasts and oliphuants. And companies are separate groups of the same thing.
And anyway, this is all indirect, as I said before.
Oh, and in the Two Towers, the Oliphaunt is referred to as "the great beast" so Tolkien did describe Mumuakil that way.
Yes, lets give Mordor an army of dragons! So. . . does that mean the orcs get Mumakil? other types of Great Beasts? What? I'm done trying to pretend that I actually understand what you guys are talking about 100%. I get most of it, but I'm still not that good with it.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I know that Bobby is really critical at times, and yeah he was longer than me. Goat may be bad, but he seems to never have bad arguments. And I did see the old AU topic:I only checked it when I posted units for a reason.
No.
It's preatty cool.
Then should he be on the list? Except with you. It was full of debates. I think it should have been called "Debates about the units of the army's of middle earth. Featuring, Dre, Argh, and Lion."
Its a personalty test.
Thanks, I think it portrays the look of a Fallen Numenorion/Haradrim Lord. Don't you?
in some way, but then at the same time it looks a bit more orcish. Better than anything else I could think of though.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
Then should he be on the list? Except with you. It was full of debates. I think it should have been called "Debates about the units of the army's of middle earth. Featuring, Dre, Argh, and Lion."
Its a personalty test.
Thanks, I think it portrays the look of a Fallen Numenorion/Haradrim Lord. Don't you?
in some way, but then at the same time it looks a bit more orcish. Better than anything else I could think of though.
I don't realy see how it looks orcish. I found it on Tolkien Gateway under Haradrim.
Bobby is one of the longest lasting RPers here, he was here before you, myself, and maybe EE. Though KK does critize almost everything here. Its just if something passes his instruction he doesn't post anything. Goats pretty bad at that too. You should have seen the A and U for the old RP. It was full of debates between Argh, KK, and Dre.
Has any one heard of the mbti?
BTW, what do ya'll think of my new picture.
Dre and I got into some lengthy debates. I still get tense thinking about it. :tounge:
I think most of us did at one point or another. I was refering to the main people that seemed to constently be in a debate:P.
Yes, yes, you do. Just for your attack on my Black Numenorions JK. But in my mind you are. Thats one of the things that makes you a good general and a worthy foe.
Thank you. :tounge:
Your welcome. I've never fought you, maybe I'll finally get my chance now:P
in some way, but then at the same time it looks a bit more orcish. Better than anything else I could think of though.
I don't realy see how it looks orcish. I found it on Tolkien Gateway under Haradrim.
oh yeah right, the Mouth of sauron is human. Yeah, that looks great. I don't remember any humans not looking like humans. . . Until I remembered the Mouth of Sauron.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I don't realy see how it looks orcish. I found it on Tolkien Gateway under Haradrim.
oh yeah right, the Mouth of sauron is human. Yeah, that looks great. I don't remember any humans not looking like humans. . . Until I remembered the Mouth of Sauron.