Kitkat, Me and him. I am very critical: but I don't say it so no-one can quote me when I put out units like the Mumakil, where people think that works.
I anllise everything, that way I can plot and think of the best stragity. INTJs for the win .
Kitkat, Me and him. I am very critical: but I don't say it so no-one can quote me when I put out units like the Mumakil, where people think that works.
I anllise everything, that way I can plot and think of the best stragity. INTJs for the win .
I anllise everything, that way I can plot and think of the best stragity. INTJs for the win .
Do I get to be on the list of critical people?
I was saying the uber ones that I know. You can be critical-It's practically required to be a long-term player here. However, Kitkat seems to spend his days criticizing strategies, unitry etc. from this RP. And I'm half as bad.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I anllise everything, that way I can plot and think of the best stragity. INTJs for the win .
Do I get to be on the list of critical people?
Yes, yes, you do. Just for your attack on my Black Numenorions JK. But in my mind you are. Thats one of the things that makes you a good general and a worthy foe.
I was saying the uber ones that I know. You can be critical-It's practically required to be a long-term player here. However, Kitkat seems to spend his days criticizing strategies, unitry etc. from this RP. And I'm half as bad.
Bobby is one of the longest lasting RPers here, he was here before you, myself, and maybe EE. Though KK does critize almost everything here. Its just if something passes his instruction he doesn't post anything. Goats pretty bad at that too. You should have seen the A and U for the old RP. It was full of debates between Argh, KK, and Dre.
No, I don't recall any detailed discussions on this matter. But personally, I'd have to agree with 8L at least mostly (I don't know all of the details of these Great Beasts, so some of this may or may not apply). Chainmail is definitely acceptable, no questions abut that. I also see no problem with a plate chestplate, and probably at least part of the arms and legs. However, I would recommend full plate simply because of how much it reduces one's flexibility. With most mounted units, a rider needs to be able to twist their body and generally be able to move easily in order to control their mount and to deal with shifting weight and force, not to mention that more weight means they'll be slower. Again, I don't know if this will apply to the Great Beasts, because I don't know how the Orcs ride them exactly, but that's how I see it for most mounted units.
How is your heavy ballista again? I would make your Panthers a little bit more expensive than your base heavy ballista (probably about five to fifteen more). Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Great Beasts are significantly smaller than Oliphaunts. Based upon the relevant scenes in RotK (since the movies are the most detail we have on these matters), the Great Beasts are roughly twice as tall as Men, or are something like four-legged Trolls (similar in height, but much longer). Oliphaunts, on the other hand, are easily four times bigger than even the Great Beasts (comparing them to cavalry), probably at least six or seven times the height.
It's a 30 foot large animal, and they have something similar to what the Oliphaunts have (which are 40 feet) (though nowhere near as extensive, those can hold 20 men easily in their moving tower set-ups) on their backs, allowing them to have as much armor and movability as normal ground troops. Yes, they would need to deal with the shifting weight still, but that would be a matter of training in this case, not manueberability.
How is your heavy ballista? I don't get what you mean by this. The Panthers are about that much more (the 20 for the heavy ballista, and yes that's on the small side, but a heavy ballista wouldn't be much use in this situation compared to the Spreader.
I actually did as extensive research as I could, and found the sizes on Lord of the wiki's or whatever that site is called (I looked it up before making these units, and saved most of the pertinent info). To cover my ground bases, I also looked at the Mumakil, though I only read through basic information.
Most of this has turned into its own discussion amongst the users here, so I'm only briefly going to touch on a few things in response to this post.
First, we have no official numbers on the sizes of either Oliphaunts or the Great Beasts. The books never gave precise details, so all we have are the movies. Comparing the sizes of the creatures in question to Trolls and humans, the Great Beasts would probably be about ten or twelve feet tall (and Oliphaunts many times greater than that).
Yes, how is it? Is it still working, or has it broken? Sorry, my hands seemed to have missed typing part of what my brain was thinking (and I did it again! I accidentally typed "what" instead of "sorry" at the beginning ), and my eyes failed to catch it. I was intending to ask how big the heavy ballista is, that way I can see how well it would actually fit.
As others have mentioned, the LotR wiki isn't exactly a very reliable source. I mean, it can't even spell "Oliphaunt" correctly. Also as others have mentioned, Tolkien Gateway is typically quite reliable, especially compared to the LotR wiki.
By the way, are we going with my theory from the old RP that different HQs having certain advantages and disadvantages not represented in the MWE
system, because any attempt to represent them would get really complicated.
Because, as I've said before, I really think we can't make a rule for everything. Part of having a good RP is having people who know how things work without needing a specific rule for every small detail.
I believe so. Honestly, it'd be rather difficult to completely remove such differences and still comply with physics and keep some sort of diversity. It's quite hard to make Dwarves have hitboxes just as large as humans'.
Agreed, some things just have to be acknowledged and understood without solid regulation. Included in that would be the HQs' individual canonical specialties and unique focuses.
"There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of Harad dragging through the lanes between the fires great towers and engines."
Then a page late, describing Grond:
"Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain trolls to wield it."
Well, I think that settles it. There no Great Beasts then. Sorry MM but we can't just make monsters in the RP .
Ehh, I don't know about that. Unfortunately, the wording and punctuation of Bobby's quote isn't quite precise enough for us to put them being separate out of the question, although it does allow that to be the case.
Part of the problem here is that "great beasts" obviously isn't a proper name, but just a general term traditionally used in reference to a specific creature (at least when the movies are considered) that actually could apply to many other creatures (similar to "fell beast"). It's clear in the quote that "great beasts" are being used in the general sense, but it's not clear that the Oliphaunts are the great beasts questioned.
But so, there are two ways that this quote can be read, each of them equally likely in my opinion. The first way (in simplified form) is: "There came great beasts like moving houses: the Mumakil of Harad dragging great towers and engines." And in this interpretation the first part is written picture of the situation as seen, and the second part is the actuality of the situation. That would make great beasts the same as the Oliphaunts. The second way (which may be harder to portray in a way that is consistently interpreted properly) is (again simplified): "There came great beasts like moving houses, the Mumakil of Harad dragged great towers and engines." And here (however poorly I may have shown it) the great beasts and the Oliphaunts are two separate things: there came great beasts (that were probably not known or named amongst the general populace of the Free Peoples), and there came Oliphaunts. Again, the phrasing of the quote sadly does not eliminate either of these options, and it (standing alone) can be read either way just as well.
As the context is always important in a situation like this, I also don't think we should leave it out (as it sometimes can make clear how a specific section is to be read). Here's the surrounding information in the book (taken directly from my copy): "Ever since the middle night the great assault had gone on. The drums rolled. To the north and to the south company upon company of the enemy pressed to the walls. There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines. Yet their Captain cared not greatly what they did or how many might be slain: their purpose was only to test the strength of the defence and to keep the men of Gondor busy in many places. It was against the Gate that he would throw his heaviest weight." And unfortunately this doesn't make everything clear either, however I believe it does still contribute a bit to the issue at hand. Personally, the context here makes me be inclined to believe that the great beasts and Oliphaunts are two separate things, although it doesn't rule out the option that they're the same. The phrasing of the surrounding sentences seems indicative of a certain idea or thought that was to be portrayed in the writing. The picture that the context paints in my mind is one of great scale, of numerous immense powers all descending upon Minas Tirith, and including foreign and unfamiliar threats. And yet despite the enormity of all of this and of the danger it posed to Gondor, it was but a distraction to Sauron. The idea that the great beasts being separate from the Oliphaunts seems to magnify this overlying theme as it shows that not only were there Oliphaunts, but other large creatures too. It just being Oliphaunts, as great of a threat as they would be, simply doesn't seem as grand. If the great beasts and Oliphaunts were intended to be the same thing, I would expect a different sort of scene of them coming in. For example, if this quote was part of the description of the arriving Haradrim army, it would make perfect sense for the great beasts described to be the Oliphaunts mentioned. These two being one unit would fit much more smoothly if they were introduced as part of a single new army coming in, as opposed to the scene of numerous armies engaged in battle.
Diving deeper into literary analysis, there also appears to be a theme within the phrasing itself. If you look closely, you'll see that Tolkien mentions each aspect of this threat in pairs, or in two parts. They are attacked from the north and the south, company upon company, great beasts and Oliphaunts, huge towers and engines. Each of half of these pairs are related in some way, but they're each their own individual entities. The wording implies that Minas Tirith isn't simply surrounded, but that different armies or at least divisions are attacking from both directions. Each company is a portion of the larger army, but still distinguished from other companies. Oliphaunts approach, yet at the same time there are other great beasts that the Gondorians do not recognize. And finally there are immense towers, but other siege engines too. Combining the great beasts and Oliphaunts, although it would not affect the flow of the presentation, ruins the theme in the writing.
Again, none of these things that I've brought up rule out either option for sure. But with that said, the theme and implications of the context make me inclined to believe that the great beasts and Oliphaunts are two separate things (although the "great beasts" may possibly consist of multiple kinds of creatures) when applied to the particular quote in question. That, combined with the more clear and solid (if less authoritative) presentation of a separate kind of "Great Beast" in the movies causes me to side with there being a "Great Beast" that is different from an Oliphaunt.
Oh, and sorry if I'm being a bit more argumentative than usual (not that I'm sure if I can be considering MM's comment ), or if my arguments are unusual or hard to follow. I'm running off of about twelve hours of sleep for the past three days and just got home from a debate tournament, so my tired yet argument-oriented brain might be picking at straws and trying to build a whole bridge out of them, but explaining how I get the bridge in the most vague and unclear way possible, likely including typos and omitted words in the process. As you can probably see, one of the obvious symptoms of this state that I'm in is excessive rambling about fairly small matters (like the fact that I'm rambling ) and talking about them in ways that will probably only end up making sense to me, and only when I'm in this state. I'll probably have a completely different view once I've gotten enough sleep and have gotten out of debate-mode. You guys will have to let me know if anything I said in this post makes sense. Or if any of you actually made it through my entire. . . Thing.
Except for when the book doesn't say. Or in the fact that we shouldn't have plate armor. Can you post that please?
He might of meant how is it mounted? (Which I do want to know.)
I'm not critical At least not out loud. I suppose I am. That sounds like a good idea
Still, I'm guessing that the Movie and the Wikia site are probably around the same level of Accuracy. Their is also the fact that size of the beast they modeled it after does not mean that that is indeed the size of these beasts. And yes, it isn't full plate. It's chain mail, the heavy chest plate, and some of the Arm and Leg stuff.
Kind of how the towers are put onto the Oliphaunts: Poles help support a "floor" and it's mounted on that.
You are one of the 3 very critical people in the RP, as far as I know. And loud, no. Kitkat is loud, he does it to every thing, you only do it to a couple. And of course it's a good idea, I thought of it.
Ehh, not so much. The Wikia site is simply inaccurate, while the movies sometimes change details or make stuff up for the sake of the movie. Though it helps when the movies are canon where the book doesn't speak. Though on that note, there's a certain order of authority on the issue of canon. Obviously, the books come first. If one of the books says something, then that's that, with only a few exceptions (which can trump the whole canon list with sufficient reason, some exceptions being those for the sake of overall fairness, and minor extensions that seem reasonable and significantly benefit the RP (as in the case of more kinds of armor and infantry weapons)). After the books come the movies. If the books are quiet on the issue, but the movies address or depict it where the books do not, then the movies' original details are considered canon as the movies are at least a well-known, official presentation of LotR. After the movies come the third-party sources of information, such as games and similar things that are based upon LotR, but have no significant official backing behind their claims. The authorities of physics, comparisons from real-world history, and others such things varies depending upon the subject.
What? Me? Loud? That's ridiculous! I can't believe that you would go so far as accusing me of being loud!
I was saying the uber ones that I know. You can be critical-It's practically required to be a long-term player here. However, Kitkat seems to spend his days criticizing strategies, unitry etc. from this RP. And I'm half as bad.
Bobby is one of the longest lasting RPers here, he was here before you, myself, and maybe EE. Though KK does critize almost everything here. Its just if something passes his instruction he doesn't post anything. Goats pretty bad at that too. You should have seen the A and U for the old RP. It was full of debates between Argh, KK, and Dre.
Has any one heard of the mbti?
BTW, what do ya'll think of my new picture.
I know that Bobby is really critical at times, and yeah he was longer than me. Goat may be bad, but he seems to never have bad arguments. And I did see the old AU topic:I only checked it when I posted units for a reason.
No.
It's preatty cool.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
It's a 30 foot large animal, and they have something similar to what the Oliphaunts have (which are 40 feet) (though nowhere near as extensive, those can hold 20 men easily in their moving tower set-ups) on their backs, allowing them to have as much armor and movability as normal ground troops. Yes, they would need to deal with the shifting weight still, but that would be a matter of training in this case, not manueberability.
How is your heavy ballista? I don't get what you mean by this. The Panthers are about that much more (the 20 for the heavy ballista, and yes that's on the small side, but a heavy ballista wouldn't be much use in this situation compared to the Spreader.
I actually did as extensive research as I could, and found the sizes on Lord of the wiki's or whatever that site is called (I looked it up before making these units, and saved most of the pertinent info). To cover my ground bases, I also looked at the Mumakil, though I only read through basic information.
Most of this has turned into its own discussion amongst the users here, so I'm only briefly going to touch on a few things in response to this post.
First, we have no official numbers on the sizes of either Oliphaunts or the Great Beasts. The books never gave precise details, so all we have are the movies. Comparing the sizes of the creatures in question to Trolls and humans, the Great Beasts would probably be about ten or twelve feet tall (and Oliphaunts many times greater than that).
Yes, how is it? Is it still working, or has it broken? Sorry, my hands seemed to have missed typing part of what my brain was thinking (and I did it again! I accidentally typed "what" instead of "sorry" at the beginning ), and my eyes failed to catch it. I was intending to ask how big the heavy ballista is, that way I can see how well it would actually fit.
As others have mentioned, the LotR wiki isn't exactly a very reliable source. I mean, it can't even spell "Oliphaunt" correctly. Also as others have mentioned, Tolkien Gateway is typically quite reliable, especially compared to the LotR wiki.
OK, well it appears that Great Beasts and Oliphaunts were actually the same thing (I believe it was Bobbywan that had a quote), so I've changed them into Oliphaunts (adjusted size and worth.)
It's working. Now that It's Oliphaunts, the heaviest Normal ballistae from the old list. Remember that it's on the back of an Oliphaunt now, and the Spreaders is about that size as well.
Is that a Website? Whenever people Mention it, I always think it's a book. I don't know why.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
OK, I had a large quote off of Kitkat's giant speel, but it did something and it lost it. Since it was mostly confirming stuff and bringing up problems in long eloquent ways, I'll summarize:
Tolkien was a Literary Analyst, and as such he would have done what Kitkat says on purpose, making it quite clear that their is some form of Great Beast (One of the quotes does mention that it was Oliphaunts pulling things, and Great beasts were their as well). As such, we need to decide what/who gets these "Great Beasts". Do we bring back fell Beasts? What creatures were their? their were "Great Monsters like towers of defense" (Used in a similar setting to Kitkat's quote, next to "Horses ran from the Mumakil, and the Easterlings rallied to them)
So, do we reset (even if nothing has really happened yet) and figure this out completely, or do we let the A&U topic deal with it on a case by case basis?
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
Most of this has turned into its own discussion amongst the users here, so I'm only briefly going to touch on a few things in response to this post.
First, we have no official numbers on the sizes of either Oliphaunts or the Great Beasts. The books never gave precise details, so all we have are the movies. Comparing the sizes of the creatures in question to Trolls and humans, the Great Beasts would probably be about ten or twelve feet tall (and Oliphaunts many times greater than that).
Yes, how is it? Is it still working, or has it broken? Sorry, my hands seemed to have missed typing part of what my brain was thinking (and I did it again! I accidentally typed "what" instead of "sorry" at the beginning ), and my eyes failed to catch it. I was intending to ask how big the heavy ballista is, that way I can see how well it would actually fit.
As others have mentioned, the LotR wiki isn't exactly a very reliable source. I mean, it can't even spell "Oliphaunt" correctly. Also as others have mentioned, Tolkien Gateway is typically quite reliable, especially compared to the LotR wiki.
OK, well it appears that Great Beasts and Oliphaunts were actually the same thing (I believe it was Bobbywan that had a quote), so I've changed them into Oliphaunts (adjusted size and worth.)
It's working. Now that It's Oliphaunts, the heaviest Normal ballistae from the old list. Remember that it's on the back of an Oliphaunt now, and the Spreaders is about that size as well.
Is that a Website? Whenever people Mention it, I always think it's a book. I don't know why.
Once again, don't be hasty. Check out Kitkat's long post first. He makes some good points in there.
And even if we do agree that Oliphaunts and Great Beasts are the same thing, I don't think that automatically means you get Oliphaunts. Many Haradrim were at that battle, so the Mordorians probably just borrowed some Oliphaunts to drive their machines.
Tolkien Gateway is a website, I recommend looking it up.
The day of prosperity makes one forget adversity; The day of adversity makes one forget prosperity.
OK, well it appears that Great Beasts and Oliphaunts were actually the same thing (I believe it was Bobbywan that had a quote), so I've changed them into Oliphaunts (adjusted size and worth.)
It's working. Now that It's Oliphaunts, the heaviest Normal ballistae from the old list. Remember that it's on the back of an Oliphaunt now, and the Spreaders is about that size as well.
Is that a Website? Whenever people Mention it, I always think it's a book. I don't know why.
Once again, don't be hasty. Check out Kitkat's long post first. He makes some good points in there.
And even if we do agree that Oliphaunts and Great Beasts are the same thing, I don't think that automatically means you get Oliphaunts. Many Haradrim were at that battle, so the Mordorians probably just borrowed some Oliphaunts to drive their machines.
Tolkien Gateway is a website, I recommend looking it up.
I actually somehow completely skipped over that giant post! Yeah, now I've got a post coming on how I should get several different powerful beasts, similar to Oliphaunts and different Mythological beasts.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
Still, I'm guessing that the Movie and the Wikia site are probably around the same level of Accuracy. Their is also the fact that size of the beast they modeled it after does not mean that that is indeed the size of these beasts. And yes, it isn't full plate. It's chain mail, the heavy chest plate, and some of the Arm and Leg stuff.
Kind of how the towers are put onto the Oliphaunts: Poles help support a "floor" and it's mounted on that.
You are one of the 3 very critical people in the RP, as far as I know. And loud, no. Kitkat is loud, he does it to every thing, you only do it to a couple. And of course it's a good idea, I thought of it.
Ehh, not so much. The Wikia site is simply inaccurate, while the movies sometimes change details or make stuff up for the sake of the movie. Though it helps when the movies are canon where the book doesn't speak. Though on that note, there's a certain order of authority on the issue of canon. Obviously, the books come first. If one of the books says something, then that's that, with only a few exceptions (which can trump the whole canon list with sufficient reason, some exceptions being those for the sake of overall fairness, and minor extensions that seem reasonable and significantly benefit the RP (as in the case of more kinds of armor and infantry weapons)). After the books come the movies. If the books are quiet on the issue, but the movies address or depict it where the books do not, then the movies' original details are considered canon as the movies are at least a well-known, official presentation of LotR. After the movies come the third-party sources of information, such as games and similar things that are based upon LotR, but have no significant official backing behind their claims. The authorities of physics, comparisons from real-world history, and others such things varies depending upon the subject.
What? Me? Loud? That's ridiculous! I can't believe that you would go so far as accusing me of being loud!
Kitkat, you are very loud. You're practically the only one who gets into exact details of physics. You make sure the pound-to-pressure ratio is right, and all that stuff. So yes, you are loud, and being loud is a good thing in this scenario.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.