I looked it up and apparently in the movies they where based on Megacerops. Which where 8.2 ft tall, and 16ft long. This thing might be slightly larger and bigger so maybe 10ft tall, and 20 ft long. So I would say it could easily hold about 8 men. And it should probably just be a platform and not the tower thing that the Mumakil have.
He means what is is like? I think he meant to say "What is your heavy ballista?"
I thank you for doing your research, if only everyone did before they post some unusual and unconventional unit
So. . . You're saying that we're listening to the Movie, rather than the Book? that sounds. . . Like what we NEVER do. And the info I've found about the book version is a 30 foot tall monster. If you really want, a 20 foot tall compromise should be fine. Yes it's a platform on top, but my point was that their is a limit of something the essential mass/size of the tower thing, not that it has one.
That still makes no sense. It's a Heavy ballista. It's a large ballista mounted on a beast.
Yeah well, I am almost as critical as you and Kitkat IRL, I just don't criticize people about that stuff (partially so I don't accidentally sound like a hypocrite myself )
Except for when the book doesn't say. Or in the fact that we shouldn't have plate armor. Can you post that please?
He might of meant how is it mounted? (Which I do want to know.)
I'm not critical At least not out loud. I suppose I am. That sounds like a good idea
So. . . You're saying that we're listening to the Movie, rather than the Book? that sounds. . . Like what we NEVER do. And the info I've found about the book version is a 30 foot tall monster. If you really want, a 20 foot tall compromise should be fine. Yes it's a platform on top, but my point was that their is a limit of something the essential mass/size of the tower thing, not that it has one.
That still makes no sense. It's a Heavy ballista. It's a large ballista mounted on a beast.
Yeah well, I am almost as critical as you and Kitkat IRL, I just don't criticize people about that stuff (partially so I don't accidentally sound like a hypocrite myself )
MM, I just re-read that section in ROTK. It says nothign about the size of Great Beasts, only that they were large enough to haul Grond and cause chaos among the orcs who were guarding it. But I'd say 20 ft. sounds fine.
In which case we go by the movie. I just watched that part on YT and they are about the height of Trolls which would put their height at around 10 ft.
So. . . You're saying that we're listening to the Movie, rather than the Book? that sounds. . . Like what we NEVER do. And the info I've found about the book version is a 30 foot tall monster. If you really want, a 20 foot tall compromise should be fine. Yes it's a platform on top, but my point was that their is a limit of something the essential mass/size of the tower thing, not that it has one.
That still makes no sense. It's a Heavy ballista. It's a large ballista mounted on a beast.
Yeah well, I am almost as critical as you and Kitkat IRL, I just don't criticize people about that stuff (partially so I don't accidentally sound like a hypocrite myself )
Except for when the book doesn't say. Or in the fact that we shouldn't have plate armor. Can you post that please?
He might of meant how is it mounted? (Which I do want to know.)
I'm not critical At least not out loud. I suppose I am. That sounds like a good idea
Still, I'm guessing that the Movie and the Wikia site are probably around the same level of Accuracy. Their is also the fact that size of the beast they modeled it after does not mean that that is indeed the size of these beasts. And yes, it isn't full plate. It's chain mail, the heavy chest plate, and some of the Arm and Leg stuff.
Kind of how the towers are put onto the Oliphaunts: Poles help support a "floor" and it's mounted on that.
You are one of the 3 very critical people in the RP, as far as I know. And loud, no. Kitkat is loud, he does it to every thing, you only do it to a couple. And of course it's a good idea, I thought of it.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
MM, I just re-read that section in ROTK. It says nothign about the size of Great Beasts, only that they were large enough to haul Grond and cause chaos among the orcs who were guarding it. But I'd say 20 ft. sounds fine.
In which case we go by the movie. I just watched that part on YT and they are about the height of Trolls which would put their height at around 10 ft.
But the Wiki says 30 ft? How did they get that then. . . How about we just do the compromise at 20 feet, and continue with that.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
MM, I just re-read that section in ROTK. It says nothign about the size of Great Beasts, only that they were large enough to haul Grond and cause chaos among the orcs who were guarding it. But I'd say 20 ft. sounds fine.
In which case we go by the movie. I just watched that part on YT and they are about the height of Trolls which would put their height at around 10 ft.
There's a key point people forget when they discuss the Great beast; just before mentioning Grond, the book mentions siege towers being pulled by Great beasts, and then identifies them as the Mumakil.
So, it's very possible that in the book the great beasts pulling Grond, mentioned just a page later, are just Oliphaunts. Also, if we go by the book, no one should have full plate armor, or even mostly full plate, but should just have mail with helmets plate elements like vambraces.
And, if we go by the movie, the great beasts have no armor, are never seen fighting, are not that gignantic and are only used to pull Grond.
Not to mention that it would probably be impractical to make armor for something like that, especially since in the book and the movie the Mordor Orcs in general don't have really
In which case we go by the movie. I just watched that part on YT and they are about the height of Trolls which would put their height at around 10 ft.
But the Wiki says 30 ft? How did they get that then. . . How about we just do the compromise at 20 feet, and continue with that.
If you mean the One Wiki, well, I don't mean to be rude, but it's trash. I wouldn't trust much like that, unless there is a source. Tolkien Gateway is, in my experience, far more reliable, and usually just as complete.
In this specific case, the wiki user who added that info (Gabriel1999) actually received a warning from an admin that stated: "Please do not add information in the infoboxes which is non-canonical or has no reference." So yeah, I doubt that number actually means anything.
About the actual number, well, see Bobby's response.
The day of prosperity makes one forget adversity; The day of adversity makes one forget prosperity.
In which case we go by the movie. I just watched that part on YT and they are about the height of Trolls which would put their height at around 10 ft.
There's a key point people forget when they discuss the Great beast; just before mentioning Grond, the book mentions siege towers being pulled by Great beasts, and then identifies them as the Mumakil.
So, it's very possible that in the book the great beasts pulling Grond, mentioned just a page later, are just Oliphaunts. Also, if we go by the book, no one should have full plate armor, or even mostly full plate, but should just have mail with helmets plate elements like vambraces.
And, if we go by the movie, the great beasts have no armor, are never seen fighting, are not that gignantic and are only used to pull Grond.
Not to mention that it would probably be impractical to make armor for something like that, especially since in the book and the movie the Mordor Orcs in general don't have really
well made armour anyway.
Do you have the quote stating that Great Beasts are actually Mumakil? I don't doubt it, but I also don't recall anything about that, having just re-read that section of RotK yesterday.
Aside from that, I'd have to agree with everything else.
The day of prosperity makes one forget adversity; The day of adversity makes one forget prosperity.
There's a key point people forget when they discuss the Great beast; just before mentioning Grond, the book mentions siege towers being pulled by Great beasts, and then identifies them as the Mumakil.
So, it's very possible that in the book the great beasts pulling Grond, mentioned just a page later, are just Oliphaunts. Also, if we go by the book, no one should have full plate armor, or even mostly full plate, but should just have mail with helmets plate elements like vambraces.
And, if we go by the movie, the great beasts have no armor, are never seen fighting, are not that gignantic and are only used to pull Grond.
Not to mention that it would probably be impractical to make armor for something like that, especially since in the book and the movie the Mordor Orcs in general don't have really
well made armour anyway.
Do you have the quote stating that Great Beasts are actually Mumakil? I don't doubt it, but I also don't recall anything about that, having just re-read that section of RotK yesterday.
Aside from that, I'd have to agree with everything else.
Let me see...ah, here it is:
"There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of Harad dragging through the lanes between the fires great towers and engines."
Then a page late, describing Grond:
"Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain trolls to wield it."
Do you have the quote stating that Great Beasts are actually Mumakil? I don't doubt it, but I also don't recall anything about that, having just re-read that section of RotK yesterday.
Aside from that, I'd have to agree with everything else.
Let me see...ah, here it is:
"There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of Harad dragging through the lanes between the fires great towers and engines."
Then a page late, describing Grond:
"Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain trolls to wield it."
Well, I think that settles it. There no Great Beasts then. Sorry MM but we can't just make monsters in the RP .
But the Wiki says 30 ft? How did they get that then. . . How about we just do the compromise at 20 feet, and continue with that.
If you mean the One Wiki, well, I don't mean to be rude, but it's trash. I wouldn't trust much like that, unless there is a source. Tolkien Gateway is, in my experience, far more reliable, and usually just as complete.
In this specific case, the wiki user who added that info (Gabriel1999) actually received a warning from an admin that stated: "Please do not add information in the infoboxes which is non-canonical or has no reference." So yeah, I doubt that number actually means anything.
About the actual number, well, see Bobby's response.
EE is right, my writing teacher for my Tolkien class said the same thing. "Don't use the One Wiki, its unreliable. Instead use Tolkien Gateway" That's a summary, but she did say to use Tolkien Gateway.
Except for when the book doesn't say. Or in the fact that we shouldn't have plate armor. Can you post that please?
He might of meant how is it mounted? (Which I do want to know.)
I'm not critical At least not out loud. I suppose I am. That sounds like a good idea
Still, I'm guessing that the Movie and the Wikia site are probably around the same level of Accuracy. Their is also the fact that size of the beast they modeled it after does not mean that that is indeed the size of these beasts. And yes, it isn't full plate. It's chain mail, the heavy chest plate, and some of the Arm and Leg stuff.
Kind of how the towers are put onto the Oliphaunts: Poles help support a "floor" and it's mounted on that.
You are one of the 3 very critical people in the RP, as far as I know. And loud, no. Kitkat is loud, he does it to every thing, you only do it to a couple. And of course it's a good idea, I thought of it.
UMMM NO. Any one can edit the Wiki site. And you can't exactly edit a movie can you ? See EE reply too. I also re-watched that part and they are around Troll size.
I see, now we just need KK here to see if I was right .
Am I? In what way, in that I'm important? Or that I critise others ideas?I ment in IRL, in my head, you should watch out . I only critise what need to be corrected Thats a mater of opponion I see.
-last edited on Feb 11, 2017 1:14:01 GMT by emeraldeddie
Post by emeraldeddie on Feb 11, 2017 1:03:40 GMT
Alright, time for the Harad unit mashup. These units will come from one of four places:
1. My list 2. Lion's list 3. Argh's list 4. Some combination of the previous three.
Basically, I'm just taking the best elements (IMO) of each list/unit, and using them for this one. Here we are:
Infantry:
Haradrim Warrior
Worth: 1 MWE Equipment: Scimitar, shield, sidearm
Armor: Bronze helmet and corslet ("Standard") Description: The standard Haradrim infantry unit, hailing from the deserts of Near Harad.
Haradrim Spearman Worth: 1 Equipment: Spear, shield, sidearm Armor: Standard Description: Similar to Haradrim Warrior, but carries a spear instead of a sword.
Haradrim Pikemen* Worth: 1 Description: More heavily armored and defense-focused Haradrim troops who prefer formations to individual combat. Used primarily to counter enemy cavalry. Weapons: Pike, sidearm(s). Armor: Standard
Mahud Tribesmen** Worth 1. Description: Very mobile skirmisher unit, who can go on the offensive with the melee troops if necessary. Weapons: Javelins, club. Armor: Light Bamboo chest armor, large oval shield
Southron Reavers* Worth: 1.5 Description: More powerful and aggressive offensive infantry who excel at cutting down weaker troops. Fast and deadly. Weapons: Halberd (shortened for use in close quarters), dual scimitars, knives. Armor: Higher-quality medium scale mail.
Southron Skirmishers* Worth: 1.5 Description: Very fast skirmish troops with ranged and melee capabilities. Fierce and capable fighters, good with ambushes, etc. Selected from agile men with the most endurance, these troops are some of the fastest infantry around. Weapons: Several short spears which can be thrown or thrusted, small buckler, various knives. Armor: Improved light scale mail.
Hunters of the Haradwaith* Worth: 2 Description: Experienced and highly skilled warriors of the south who are equally good with ranged or melee combat. Chosen from the toughest men, hardened by harsh life in the deserts. Weapons: Longbow, scimitar, buckler, sidearms. Armor: Medium scale mail with steel quarter-plate.
Harad Linepiercer** Worth 3. Description: These men have only one purpose: to ruin the orderly ranks of an organised enemy. If a volley of javelins and aggressive attack does not break the lines, then these men will hook the enemy with their falx and drag men out of position to be smashed almost instantly. For those who don’t know, a falx looks somewhat like a scimitar, except it curves forward instead of back and is designed as a hacking weapon, not a slashing weapon. Armor: Lamellar/scalemail armour Weapons: Heavy serrated javelins, hooked two-handed falx.
Dismounted Men of the Red Serpent.** Worth 4.5 Description: Soldiers of the highest order and calling. Though normally mounted, they possess more than enough skill to hack through enemy lines on foot. Armor: Heavy scalemail Weapons: scimitar, buckler shield.
Half-Troll** Worth: 6 Equipment: Mace, Sword, Shield Armor: Padded bone armor Description: Enormous warriors hailing from Far Harad, these bashers are among the most feared infantry of the Southrons.
Morgûr ("Blackhearts") Worth: 8 Equipment: Scimitar, bow, throwing knives, sidearm(s) (equipment can vary) Armor: Standard Description: Descended from the Black Numenorean brothers Herumor and Fuinur, these elite warriors have spent their entire lives training for battle against the hated men of Gondor. Dangerous both in melee and at range.
Archers:
Haradrim Archer Worth: 1 Equipment: Bow, Daggers Armor: Standard Description: Ranged counterparts to their melee brethren
Southron Archers** Worth 1.2 Description: Extremely mobile archers meant to fire upon an advancing enemy and then engage in close combat. Armor: Light bamboo/padded chest armour Weapons: Bow, scimitar.
Borderlands Archers** Worth 3. Description: Skilled archers with good aim and some stealthy skill. Armor: Bamboo/padded chest armour, stealthy clothing Weapons: Bow, side-arm
Cavalry
Haradrim Cavalry. Worth 1.5 Armor: Standard, buckler shield. Weapons: Spear, scimitar Description: Standard Haradrim cavalry unit, essentially a mounted version of the basic infantry.
Mahud Riders** Worth 1.5 Armor: Bamboo/padded chest armor, large oval shields Weapons: Javelins, clubs Description: Tribesmen mounted on camels. Not very effective as charging cavalry, but the camels tend to frighten horses, giving them an advantage against other mounted units.
Men of the Red Serpent** Worth 5 Armor: Heavy scalemail, buckler shield Weapons: Lance, scimitar Description: The guard of the Red Serpent himself, men of such deadly skill on a horse as to easily match any better-armored opponent.
Oliphaunts (mûmakil)** Worth: 50 Description: Great war beasts of Harad, without equal in Middle-Earth. Immensely powerful and tough to bring down. Weapons: Tusks, spikes on tusks, spiked chain between tusks, archers on top, being a giant raging beast that weighs 50+ tons, etc. Armor: Very thick hide.
8L or myself may add more units as time goes on, but this should serve for starters. A single asterisk indicates a unit that was more or less borrowed from Lion's list; a double asterisk indicates one that was borrowed from Argh's list.
The day of prosperity makes one forget adversity; The day of adversity makes one forget prosperity.
"There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of Harad dragging through the lanes between the fires great towers and engines."
Then a page late, describing Grond:
"Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain trolls to wield it."
Well, I think that settles it. There no Great Beasts then. Sorry MM but we can't just make monsters in the RP .
Thanks Bobby.
I'm not entirely convinced they refer to the same thing, but I can't really argue against. So yeah, I'm afraid Mordor will have no such Beasts. Sorry MM.
The day of prosperity makes one forget adversity; The day of adversity makes one forget prosperity.
Well, I think that settles it. There no Great Beasts then. Sorry MM but we can't just make monsters in the RP .
Thanks Bobby.
I'm not entirely convinced they refer to the same thing, but I can't really argue against. So yeah, I'm afraid Mordor will have no such Beasts. Sorry MM.
I wasn't either, but tolkien does say that they are mumakil. So thats why I agree with Bobbyone. You can't go directly against Tolkien.
Alright, time for the Harad unit mashup. These units will come from one of four places:
1. My list 2. Lion's list 3. Argh's list 4. Some combination of the previous three.
Basically, I'm just taking the best elements (IMO) of each list/unit, and using them for this one. Here we are:
Infantry:
Haradrim Warrior
Worth: 1 MWE Equipment: Scimitar, shield, sidearm
Armor: Bronze helmet and corslet ("Standard") Description: The standard Haradrim infantry unit, hailing from the deserts of Near Harad.
Haradrim Spearman Worth: 1 Equipment: Spear, shield, sidearm Armor: Standard Description: Similar to Haradrim Warrior, but carries a spear instead of a sword.
Haradrim Pikemen* Worth: 1 Description: More heavily armored and defense-focused Haradrim troops who prefer formations to individual combat. Used primarily to counter enemy cavalry. Weapons: Pike, sidearm(s). Armor: Standard
Mahud Tribesmen** Worth 1. Description: Very mobile skirmisher unit, who can go on the offensive with the melee troops if necessary. Weapons: Javelins, club. Armor: Light Bamboo chest armor, large oval shield
Southron Reavers* Worth: 1.5 Description: More powerful and aggressive offensive infantry who excel at cutting down weaker troops. Fast and deadly. Weapons: Halberd (shortened for use in close quarters), dual scimitars, knives. Armor: Higher-quality medium scale mail.
Southron Skirmishers* Worth: 1.5 Description: Very fast skirmish troops with ranged and melee capabilities. Fierce and capable fighters, good with ambushes, etc. Selected from agile men with the most endurance, these troops are some of the fastest infantry around. Weapons: Several short spears which can be thrown or thrusted, small buckler, various knives. Armor: Improved light scale mail.
Hunters of the Haradwaith* Worth: 2 Description: Experienced and highly skilled warriors of the south who are equally good with ranged or melee combat. Chosen from the toughest men, hardened by harsh life in the deserts. Weapons: Longbow, scimitar, buckler, sidearms. Armor: Medium scale mail with steel quarter-plate.
Harad Linepiercer** Worth 3. Description: These men have only one purpose: to ruin the orderly ranks of an organised enemy. If a volley of javelins and aggressive attack does not break the lines, then these men will hook the enemy with their falx and drag men out of position to be smashed almost instantly. For those who don’t know, a falx looks somewhat like a scimitar, except it curves forward instead of back and is designed as a hacking weapon, not a slashing weapon. Armor: Lamellar/scalemail armour Weapons: Heavy serrated javelins, hooked two-handed falx.
Dismounted Men of the Red Serpent.** Worth 4.5 Description: Soldiers of the highest order and calling. Though normally mounted, they possess more than enough skill to hack through enemy lines on foot. Armor: Heavy scalemail Weapons: scimitar, buckler shield.
Half-Troll** Worth: 6 Equipment: Mace, Sword, Shield Armor: Padded bone armor Description: Enormous warriors hailing from Far Harad, these bashers are among the most feared infantry of the Southrons.
Morgûr ("Blackhearts") Worth: 8 Equipment: Scimitar, bow, throwing knives, sidearm(s) (equipment can vary) Armor: Standard Description: Descended from the Black Numenorean brothers Herumor and Fuinur, these elite warriors have spent their entire lives training for battle against the hated men of Gondor. Dangerous both in melee and at range.
Archers:
Haradrim Archer Worth: 1 Equipment: Bow, Daggers Armor: Standard Description: Ranged counterparts to their melee brethren
Southron Archers** Worth 1.2 Description: Extremely mobile archers meant to fire upon an advancing enemy and then engage in close combat. Armor: Light bamboo/padded chest armour Weapons: Bow, scimitar.
Borderlands Archers** Worth 3. Description: Skilled archers with good aim and some stealthy skill. Armor: Bamboo/padded chest armour, stealthy clothing Weapons: Bow, side-arm
Cavalry
Haradrim Cavalry. Worth 1.5 Armor: Standard, buckler shield. Weapons: Spear, scimitar Description: Standard Haradrim cavalry unit, essentially a mounted version of the basic infantry.
Mahud Riders** Worth 1.5 Armor: Bamboo/padded chest armor, large oval shields Weapons: Javelins, clubs Description: Tribesmen mounted on camels. Not very effective as charging cavalry, but the camels tend to frighten horses, giving them an advantage against other mounted units.
Men of the Red Serpent** Worth 5 Armor: Heavy scalemail, buckler shield Weapons: Lance, scimitar Description: The guard of the Red Serpent himself, men of such deadly skill on a horse as to easily match any better-armored opponent.
Oliphaunts (mûmakil)** Worth: 50 Description: Great war beasts of Harad, without equal in Middle-Earth. Immensely powerful and tough to bring down. Weapons: Tusks, spikes on tusks, spiked chain between tusks, archers on top, being a giant raging beast that weighs 50+ tons, etc. Armor: Very thick hide.
8L or myself may add more units as time goes on, but this should serve for starters. A single asterisk indicates a unit that was more or less borrowed from Lion's list; a double asterisk indicates one that was borrowed from Argh's list.
Thanks EE I think I will add some more sometime. I have a few from lions list that I would like to use, and one or two units of mine own that I want to make.
Note if I post units I will hopefully use the same asterisk system as EE, assuming I remember.