I looked at it, and it looks far to complex for the RP, not to mention that it borders on OP. I wouldn't even use it with the dwarves, and they have a pretty high tech level. I personally object to all use of pumps in the RP as there is NO mention of them in the books, nor do they appear advanced enough to have them. It also doesn't look like it could fire very far, at most 20 - 30 feet. If anymore I don't know what your using to operate the hand pump
I've seen it, and I will bring it up with the team later
Someone summoned me?
So you guys are arguing about pumps, correct? And for both the uses of disposing of bilge water and propelling oil? Personally, I don't think hand pumps are much of an issue. From what I understand, the first one was invented somewhere around 250 B.C., so it seems likely that at least someone in Middle-earth (probably ship crews/builders) would have something of the sort. A basic hand pump is quite simple: you have a piston attached to a shaft that sticks out the top, and two one-way flaps on the sides of the cylinder. You honestly don't even need to seal it particularly well (which would be the hardest part) for it to work, so long as you don't mind a small loss in efficiency. Archimedes' screw was also invented at around the same time (or perhaps even earlier in Egypt or Assyria), and is perfectly well suited to pumping water out of a ship. I don't see a problem with having a bilge pump of some sort in a ship. The issues that I see are when you start having to deal with elevated pressures and the whole fire thing. For these Greek-fire pumps (which, I will point out, the article said could only fire about fifteen meters), the entire system relies upon getting enough pressure inside the container to force the oil out quickly enough to launch it any reasonable distance. That means that you're probably going to be going over a hundred PSI, which won't be easy to seal, particularly in the pump itself. Most of the joints would be easy as you just cover them with a bit of molten metal, and even the valves will seal themselves when under pressure if you have something for them to seal with (any sort of rubber, or probably something else that we'd have here); but I don't see how they'd get the piston to seal fully. To seal the piston, you'd need something flexible that can rub against the cylinder wall, but still stiff enough that it won't just let all of the pressure out. You could mostly seal it, especially if it was being used for unpressurized water, but I doubt you'd be able to seal it against air at over a hundred PSI. While a poor seal will work for getting water out of the bilge, the slightest leak will completely fail a pressurized system like the one used for throwing oil. As for the whole fire-throwing thing, well, you guys should know by now. I don't know exactly how 8L's works (that is, the fire itself) but you guys should know all of our limitations on fire, so I'll leave that part between you.
I believe EE did. Yes and yes.
Sound good.
Could you use some pipe and maybe seal it with some caulk, and maybe cover it with wax to fire-prof it?
I do know that, all I have, is oil, with tree resin mixed in.
OOC2: I thought the rest of your fleet was on the north side with your transports?
Mine are based off of Byzantine dromon (Since that's what tolkien said that the Umbarim had) which are around 100 ft long, and around 20 ft long and can hold up to 60 men.
OOC3: Destroyers are pretty much galleys, which use both oars and sails, and use either steering oars and rudders.
OOC: Really.
OOC: They're north of our position. I'm assuming we're on the west side of the island, as otherwise we'd be fighting the Anduin too.
In that case, I'm pretty sure it's not a Destroyer. I'd expect a ship that can hold 60 men to be at least 40-60 NWE.
OOC3: Similar, but they cannot be the same. As they're worth 20 NWE, I'd say they have a crew of around 10. As they are combat ships, they cannot have many men steering.
OOC: I thought we where on the south part of the island.
Do remember that transports can hold around 100 men, and they are free. How big do you think they are? NWE is differn't from MWE.
OOC2: Why not? But the crew isn't combat men, and are more or less free. The smallest medieval warships would have a crew about 30.
So you guys are arguing about pumps, correct? And for both the uses of disposing of bilge water and propelling oil? Personally, I don't think hand pumps are much of an issue. From what I understand, the first one was invented somewhere around 250 B.C., so it seems likely that at least someone in Middle-earth (probably ship crews/builders) would have something of the sort. A basic hand pump is quite simple: you have a piston attached to a shaft that sticks out the top, and two one-way flaps on the sides of the cylinder. You honestly don't even need to seal it particularly well (which would be the hardest part) for it to work, so long as you don't mind a small loss in efficiency. Archimedes' screw was also invented at around the same time (or perhaps even earlier in Egypt or Assyria), and is perfectly well suited to pumping water out of a ship. I don't see a problem with having a bilge pump of some sort in a ship. The issues that I see are when you start having to deal with elevated pressures and the whole fire thing. For these Greek-fire pumps (which, I will point out, the article said could only fire about fifteen meters), the entire system relies upon getting enough pressure inside the container to force the oil out quickly enough to launch it any reasonable distance. That means that you're probably going to be going over a hundred PSI, which won't be easy to seal, particularly in the pump itself. Most of the joints would be easy as you just cover them with a bit of molten metal, and even the valves will seal themselves when under pressure if you have something for them to seal with (any sort of rubber, or probably something else that we'd have here); but I don't see how they'd get the piston to seal fully. To seal the piston, you'd need something flexible that can rub against the cylinder wall, but still stiff enough that it won't just let all of the pressure out. You could mostly seal it, especially if it was being used for unpressurized water, but I doubt you'd be able to seal it against air at over a hundred PSI. While a poor seal will work for getting water out of the bilge, the slightest leak will completely fail a pressurized system like the one used for throwing oil. As for the whole fire-throwing thing, well, you guys should know by now. I don't know exactly how 8L's works (that is, the fire itself) but you guys should know all of our limitations on fire, so I'll leave that part between you.
I believe EE did. Yes and yes.
Sound good.
Could you use some pipe and maybe seal it with some caulk, and maybe cover it with wax to fire-prof it?
I do know that, all I have, is oil, with tree resin mixed in.
Thanks for your help KK!
You could use caulk as a sealer, but only in the places where we've already solved the sealing issue. Yeah, you could run it around the joints, but I doubt it'd be able to take the friction of constantly rubbing against the cylinder wall for very long. Fire-proofing shouldn't be much of an issue, either. From my understanding, the oil is lit after leaving the pipes, so only the end of the pipe needs to be fireproof (and it's probably made of metal, so that isn't an issue). There shouldn't be any air in the system after the oil container, so you shouldn't need to worry about the fire traveling up the stream and through the pipes. Don't heat the oil too much though, or else you might cause it to spontaneously combust and probably detonate the entire system.
Could you use some pipe and maybe seal it with some caulk, and maybe cover it with wax to fire-prof it?
I do know that, all I have, is oil, with tree resin mixed in.
Thanks for your help KK!
You could use caulk as a sealer, but only in the places where we've already solved the sealing issue. Yeah, you could run it around the joints, but I doubt it'd be able to take the friction of constantly rubbing against the cylinder wall for very long. Fire-proofing shouldn't be much of an issue, either. From my understanding, the oil is lit after leaving the pipes, so only the end of the pipe needs to be fireproof (and it's probably made of metal, so that isn't an issue). There shouldn't be any air in the system after the oil container, so you shouldn't need to worry about the fire traveling up the stream and through the pipes. Don't heat the oil too much though, or else you might cause it to spontaneously combust and probably detonate the entire system.
I figured you probably had something worked out.
Glad to try to shred somebody else's machinery!
So metal pipes and caulk?
I think part of my logic was "If the Byzantines could do it, than I can. :Please
OOC: They're north of our position. I'm assuming we're on the west side of the island, as otherwise we'd be fighting the Anduin too.
In that case, I'm pretty sure it's not a Destroyer. I'd expect a ship that can hold 60 men to be at least 40-60 NWE.
OOC3: Similar, but they cannot be the same. As they're worth 20 NWE, I'd say they have a crew of around 10. As they are combat ships, they cannot have many men steering.
OOC: I thought we where on the south part of the island.
Do remember that transports can hold around 100 men, and they are free. How big do you think they are? NWE is differn't from MWE.
OOC2: Why not? But the crew isn't combat men, and are more or less free. The smallest medieval warships would have a crew about 30.
OOC: Ok then. You still have one Destroyer.
That's becaus ethey are unarmed. I'm assuming the NWE is spent on weapons and crew. And NWE is almost the same. You have 1, 000 NWE, but if you want more ships, you can spend all your MWE on ships. NWE and MWE are the exactly same worth.
*The Gondorian fleet sails south down the east side of the island, eventually coming around behind the Corsair ships. They form the following formation:*
F B D F D F B S D F D F B S D F D F B S D F D F B S D F F B
D = Destroyer F = Frigate B = Battleship S = Siege ship
*As soon as they are in range, the Battleships, frigates, and Siege ships begin firing everything they've got into the heart of your formation. The destroyers speed ahead, heading towards the rear of your ships.*
*My ships turn to face and focus on your destroyers destroying many.*
*Suddenly a volley of flaming arrows, and bolts/boulders rain down from behind your ships destroying and burning many.*
*On the island rafts are made 50%*
OOC: I'm handling this battle until EE returns.
Where did the bolts come from? You never mentioned landing siege weapons on the island.
OOC: I thought we where on the south part of the island.
Do remember that transports can hold around 100 men, and they are free. How big do you think they are? NWE is differn't from MWE.
OOC2: Why not? But the crew isn't combat men, and are more or less free. The smallest medieval warships would have a crew about 30.
OOC: Ok then. You still have one Destroyer.
That's becaus ethey are unarmed. I'm assuming the NWE is spent on weapons and crew. And NWE is almost the same. You have 1, 000 NWE, but if you want more ships, you can spend all your MWE on ships. NWE and MWE are the exactly same worth.
OOC: Plus the ones I captured.
Which goes to show that NWE doesn't deside the size of a ship. I know, but it still has its differences.
P.S. I was thinking that we should probably up date the Naval system and make it a bit more historically accurate. Do you want to give impute and help me?
P.P.S. Are we allowed to message mods like you and MLB? Or just the admins?
You could use caulk as a sealer, but only in the places where we've already solved the sealing issue. Yeah, you could run it around the joints, but I doubt it'd be able to take the friction of constantly rubbing against the cylinder wall for very long. Fire-proofing shouldn't be much of an issue, either. From my understanding, the oil is lit after leaving the pipes, so only the end of the pipe needs to be fireproof (and it's probably made of metal, so that isn't an issue). There shouldn't be any air in the system after the oil container, so you shouldn't need to worry about the fire traveling up the stream and through the pipes. Don't heat the oil too much though, or else you might cause it to spontaneously combust and probably detonate the entire system.
I figured you probably had something worked out.
Glad to try to shred somebody else's machinery!
So metal pipes and caulk?
I think part of my logic was "If the Byzantines could do it, than I can. :Please
Yep, it's powerful but not op or unreasonable.
Now I know how MM and Goat feal.
As I said, that'll work for most of the system, but I'm not sure about the piston.
Probably, but you should still know how they did it.
That's becaus ethey are unarmed. I'm assuming the NWE is spent on weapons and crew. And NWE is almost the same. You have 1, 000 NWE, but if you want more ships, you can spend all your MWE on ships. NWE and MWE are the exactly same worth.
OOC: Plus the ones I captured.
Which goes to show that NWE doesn't deside the size of a ship. I know, but it still has its differences.
P.S. I was thinking that we should probably up date the Naval system and make it a bit more historically accurate. Do you want to give impute and help me?
P.P.S. Are we allowed to message mods like you and MLB? Or just the admins?
OOC: Those ones are diabled; I can sink them, or you can leave them, and I can sail to the island and repair them.
I suppose so.
P.S. Sure.
P.P.S. I believe you're allowed to message any staff member if you have an issue, but there's some stuff only Admins can sort.
Which goes to show that NWE doesn't deside the size of a ship. I know, but it still has its differences.
P.S. I was thinking that we should probably up date the Naval system and make it a bit more historically accurate. Do you want to give impute and help me?
P.P.S. Are we allowed to message mods like you and MLB? Or just the admins?
OOC: Those ones are diabled; I can sink them, or you can leave them, and I can sail to the island and repair them.
I suppose so.
P.S. Sure.
P.P.S. I believe you're allowed to message any staff member if you have an issue, but there's some stuff only Admins can sort.
OOC: How did you disable them?
P.S. Where do we start? Types of ships?
P.P.S. Than would it be ok to message you about the above so that I can send you pictures and whatnot? And so we don't spam up a topic.