I assume you are quoting books. And I will assert that if you have to write a book in order to put a Band-Aid on a plothole, the movie has still failed to make Rey not be a Mary Sue.
Look -- I like Rey. There's great potential there. She has, or rather, had, an intriguing backstory. However, the fact remains that she steps on some of the other character's toes with the abilities she has shown... but never earned. Not on-screen at least. All I'm saying is that she's not as well written as she could've been.
The books were not written to explain her knowledge, they simply inform the details. I think they sort of embellish Rey's scavenger life, they show what her interests were, how she entertained herself, etc.
She isn't perfect....that's one of the greatest things about Rey. She is so good in some ways, but so bad in others. I like the idea of a scavenger from the middle of nowhere becoming a powerful Jedi and discovering the skills she has. I don't believe in self-empowerment... But I don't think that is exactly what it is all about. I think the theme was also touched on at the very end of TLJ with the kid and the broom. Anyone can have the force.
Right, anyone can have the force. But nobody can use it well without proper training. That's the point I'm trying to get at. Developing force powers takes time and training, not to mention an actual awareness of the existence of the force. It's not like magic where you just suddenly notice weird things happening around you, it's something you need to learn the existence of before you can even really benefit from it or control it.
The books were not written to explain her knowledge, they simply inform the details. I think they sort of embellish Rey's scavenger life, they show what her interests were, how she entertained herself, etc.
She isn't perfect....that's one of the greatest things about Rey. She is so good in some ways, but so bad in others. I like the idea of a scavenger from the middle of nowhere becoming a powerful Jedi and discovering the skills she has. I don't believe in self-empowerment... But I don't think that is exactly what it is all about. I think the theme was also touched on at the very end of TLJ with the kid and the broom. Anyone can have the force.
Right, anyone can have the force. But nobody can use it well without proper training. That's the point I'm trying to get at. Developing force powers takes time and training, not to mention an actual awareness of the existence of the force. It's not like magic where you just suddenly notice weird things happening around you, it's something you need to learn the existence of before you can even really benefit from it or control it.
I think Rey may have had some vague awareness. Actually, what I'm interested to see is, if she really is nobody. If she is somebody, then it wouldn't be a surprise. But, if she is nobody, it will be a bit weird.
Just a note on the Rey is a Mary Sue thing, I think that is hardly fair. Rey makes many, many mistakes. Her big weakness is her desire for her family, and that really blurs her view of things. In The Last Jedi she becomes so convinced Kylo will turn good that she is fighting with Luke. Then she almost dies by foolishly going to The First Order because she thinks she can turn Kylo.
In The Force Awakens she wasn't perfect either. She made little mistakes, remember it was Rey's fault the Rathtors got out. They almost killed her and all her friends. She also was not very knowledgeable about the Force in TLJ, as we could see, when Luke slapped her with a leaf.
Luke very slowly developed his force powers. In episode IV, he could barely deflect blaster bolts with a lightsaber, only managing to do so after being given good advice from his mentor. The extent of the force abilities Luke shows in episode IV are calming down, and allowing the force to guide his actions. Apart from this, he is completely inept.
In episode V, we see that he still lacks training, which shows in his struggle to pull his lightsaber out of the snow when he gets kidnapped by a wampa. Later in the episode, Luke gets extensive training from Yoda, who actually teaches him lessons. In spite of this training, however, Luke still fails in key areas, such as not being able to lift objects of certain size, and literally losing his duel with Vader, only escaping through luck.
Only in episode VI do we see Luke has learned from his mistakes and developed as a character. He has undergone failure, hardship, loss, and possible embarrassment, but has finally, at the end of the story, developed into a powerful force user, but only after having made plenty of mistakes along the way, and only after being given plenty of guidance.
On the flip side, Rey is able to do things that other characters would be much more qualified to do... without any sort of prior training or experience. By no means would any person suddenly figure out how to use force persuasion without having actually seen the technique before, heck -- there was barely anything prior to that scene that suggested to her she was even sufficiently force-sensitive for that sort of thing. In the process: she ends up devaluing Han-Solo's own relationship with the Millenium Falcon as well as Luke's journey to becoming a jedi.
I could go on... but the Mary Sue-ish stuff is there, you just have to look for it.
I can't say I don't see the Mary-Sue-ish stuff, but I just don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be. I don't know if there was "barely anything prior... that suggested to her she was even sufficiently force-sensitive." Her first use of the Force was resisting Kylo's mind-probe. That makes sense as an ability one would stumble across in that situation. She is trying to resist him and discovers that she can do so with a strange power she didn't know she had.
I honestly think there are only two things she ever does that seem close to unmerited. The first is the mind trick on the stormtrooper. However, she does try three times before succeeding and it was necessary to get her out somehow to progress the story, so I'm willing to overlook it. We learn in TLJ that she has a crazy "raw strength." Snoke said he knew Kylo's equal in the light would rise, implying the Force gave Rey extreme, rare power because it was trying to balance itself to counter Snoke and the Knights of Ren.
The second is when she pulls the lightsaber to her. The above still stands here too, but this is probably the hardest to accept out of all her Force actions. The only thing I can think of is that maybe Kylo was "loosening" his grip on it as he was about to grab it, and then with it in the middle of the air, Rey was able to wrest it from him. She already knows she can use the Force by this point so it makes sense she would at least try.
The only other time she uses the Force in VII is, as you said of Luke, calming down and allowing the Force to guide her actions.
All in all, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think you should let this little thing stop you from enjoying the movies. Both of the "close to unmerited" things I said she did are really cool moments that should be enjoyed for what they are. Like it or not, Star Wars is just a movie and you should be able to enjoy it for what it is even if some aspects of it don't always make perfect sense.
I'm not here to rant or force my beliefs on others. So I am just going to leave my grievances here:
1. TFA too closely mirrors A New Hope. This isn't something I'm particularly mad about, but it's still disappointing.
2. Han Solo dies in the first movie.
3. Kylo Ren is really just an angsty teenager who has no business being the story's main antagonist.
4. Luke dies... and the movie manipulates your emotions as it goes about killing him. First of all: he shows up on salt-hoth to seemingly sacrifice himself to Kylo a-la Obi-Wan. Just when it is revealed he wasn't in real danger (because he was creating a force-projection), we relax for a moment, glad that he wasn't actually going to let Kylo kill him... except, apparently, he just disappears after having over-exerted himself... no. Just no. Besides -- if he could do that why not actually show up in person and unleash a much more destructive force-power? You know, actually end the conflict. Oh right, we still haven't done episode IX. Which is a good Segway into point V
5. TLJ uses scenes that would've worked well in IX, particularly the scene where Kylo betrays Snoke, and then fails to hit the story beats those scenes should have lead to, all for the sake of being 'subversive'.
6. Literally the only original character they don't kill off (not counting the ones they won't give proper screentime to, such as R2 and Chewbacca) is Leia... and as has been mentioned in this topic before, the actress who played her is gone, so... why preserve a character who won't be able to feature in the next movie, but also kill the one people actually wanted to see again?
7. The Rey's parents debacle is a blatant violation of the Chekov's gun principle.
8. We are led to believe that Luke, the same person who redeemed Darth Vader: almost went through with killing his own nephew just because he was showing signs of turning to the dark side. This is absurdly out of character for Luke, and is apparently the entire BASIS for the reason conflict exists in the first place.
I don't intend to push my thoughts on the movie on anyone else... but this topic does ask "why the hate?" and this is my answer to that question.
Alright, I don't want to start a huge debate, but I have pretty simple answers to most of these.
1. Yeah, I know, kinda disappointing, but rarely is it painfully obvious aside from the Starkiller.
2. Sad for sure, especially that he never reunites with Luke, but not a reason to hate the movies. His death was done well.
3. I'm kind of tired of people calling Kylo "angsty" and "emo," he's a complex character who has emotions. If you'd rather have just another Vader, that's fine, but personally, I like Kylo and his character development.
4. You honestly just described the way I felt while first watching that climax pretty well. The only thing is, it left me stunned, not angry or betrayed. I was very confused and kind of in denial as it cut back to Kylo marching into the base. I will never forget it and it was an awesome theatrical experience. His death didn't take long to come to terms with and I'm not too sad since he's pretty much guaranteed to return in IX as a ghost.
5. Snoke's betrayal should not have been put off to IX, and here's why. It wouldn't have been nearly as surprising then. Vader betraying Palpatine in VI was surprising, but if it had happened with Kylo and Snoke in IX, people would have just said it was copying the end of VI just like VII copied IV. But instead, they surprised everyone by doing it a movie early. That was a good twist. The sad part is now people are complaining that they killed off Snoke too early, many of the same people that would have complained about it copying VI if they had waited and done in IX. I really feel sorry for some of these people who just won't let themselves enjoy a movie.
6. Every single one of those decisions was made before Carrie's passing, and they couldn't go back and change it.
7. It is actually very important to the story even though they are nobodies because it defines a large part of Rey's character development.
8. He literally said in the same scene that he described this that it was "the briefest moment of pure instinct," and yet people still use it to try and prove his character was ruined by this film.
5. It subverts our expectations, which is apparently a bad thing now.
6. Because Carrie Fisher was done with the movie when she died.
7. If we go by Chekhov’s Gun then half of this movie would not be there.
8. Luke is not perfect. No one is.
3. That does not change the inherent immaturity of the character, it actually makes it a much more glaring issue.
4. I mean, me personally, I was expecting the guy to do something impressive and meaningful.
5. To be fair, if anyone was going to 'subvert' the story, it should've been JJ Abrams. Having one mind butt in to the story somebody else was writing halfway and change everything only causes chaos for both the film studio and the moviegoers.
7. The Chekhov's Gun principle states that if you touch upon something in one part of the story, make sure there is a payoff later on. i.e. if you have Rey and Leia give a very meaningful hug (going as far as to describe it as motherly in the actual script) in one movie, then you must reveal what that meant in the next movie, otherwise, don't include it as it wastes screen time and manipulates the audience.
Similarly, in the case of Snoke, we are introduced to this new, ugly, scary villain, and... learn nothing about him before he is unceremoniously killed. We were introduced to this character, and expected to learn about him in the next movie. Instead he is cynically tossed aside in a scene that could have and probably should have been saved for Episode IX. He could have just as easily been killed pre-TFA and the story would be mostly the same.
8. Think about it this way:
Darth Vader was an INCREDIBLY dangerous, powerful, and quite evil foe. And yet, Luke, seeing a sliver of light in the midst of overwhelming darkness, insisted on not killing Vader, even when his own life at-stake.
In contrast, Luke: standing in front of Ben's bed, sees a sliver of darkness in the midst of mostly light, almost decided to kill Ben, even when no threat was being posed otherwise.
These two ideas of what Luke's character is morally capable of directly contradict each other.
7. You watched the Film Theory video, didn't you? Just because a hug is described as motherly in a script doesn't mean the people hugging are mother and daughter. That was just a few seconds of screen time to show that people were sad about Han's death, and that Leia could sense Rey's sadness since they both have the Force.
Snoke was not really even focused on much in TFA, we just weren't told where he came from so people started speculating about him for two years. Boba Fett was not focused on in the originals, and no one knew where he came from, but that didn't stop people from adoring him so much that George ended up putting him in the prequels.
I already countered the rest of this in a previous post.
Luke very slowly developed his force powers. In episode IV, he could barely deflect blaster bolts with a lightsaber, only managing to do so after being given good advice from his mentor. The extent of the force abilities Luke shows in episode IV are calming down, and allowing the force to guide his actions. Apart from this, he is completely inept.
In episode V, we see that he still lacks training, which shows in his struggle to pull his lightsaber out of the snow when he gets kidnapped by a wampa. Later in the episode, Luke gets extensive training from Yoda, who actually teaches him lessons. In spite of this training, however, Luke still fails in key areas, such as not being able to lift objects of certain size, and literally losing his duel with Vader, only escaping through luck.
Only in episode VI do we see Luke has learned from his mistakes and developed as a character. He has undergone failure, hardship, loss, and possible embarrassment, but has finally, at the end of the story, developed into a powerful force user, but only after having made plenty of mistakes along the way, and only after being given plenty of guidance.
On the flip side, Rey is able to do things that other characters would be much more qualified to do... without any sort of prior training or experience. By no means would any person suddenly figure out how to use force persuasion without having actually seen the technique before, heck -- there was barely anything prior to that scene that suggested to her she was even sufficiently force-sensitive for that sort of thing. In the process: she ends up devaluing Han-Solo's own relationship with the Millenium Falcon as well as Luke's journey to becoming a jedi.
I could go on... but the Mary Sue-ish stuff is there, you just have to look for it.
I can't say I don't see the Mary-Sue-ish stuff, but I just don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be. I don't know if there was "barely anything prior... that suggested to her she was even sufficiently force-sensitive." Her first use of the Force was resisting Kylo's mind-probe. That makes sense as an ability one would stumble across in that situation. She is trying to resist him and discovers that she can do so with a strange power she didn't know she had.
I honestly think there are only two things she ever does that seem close to unmerited. The first is the mind trick on the stormtrooper. However, she does try three times before succeeding and it was necessary to get her out somehow to progress the story, so I'm willing to overlook it. We learn in TLJ that she has a crazy "raw strength." Snoke said he knew Kylo's equal in the light would rise, implying the Force gave Rey extreme, rare power because it was trying to balance itself to counter Snoke and the Knights of Ren.
The second is when she pulls the lightsaber to her. The above still stands here too, but this is probably the hardest to accept out of all her Force actions. The only thing I can think of is that maybe Kylo was "loosening" his grip on it as he was about to grab it, and then with it in the middle of the air, Rey was able to wrest it from him. She already knows she can use the Force by this point so it makes sense she would at least try.
The only other time she uses the Force in VII is, as you said of Luke, calming down and allowing the Force to guide her actions.
All in all, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think you should let this little thing stop you from enjoying the movies. Both of the "close to unmerited" things I said she did are really cool moments that should be enjoyed for what they are. Like it or not, Star Wars is just a movie and you should be able to enjoy it for what it is even if some aspects of it don't always make perfect sense.
I don't let me get it down too much.
Much in the way people are trying to defend the idea that Rey is not a Mary Sue, I am merely defending the idea that she is
3. That does not change the inherent immaturity of the character, it actually makes it a much more glaring issue.
4. I mean, me personally, I was expecting the guy to do something impressive and meaningful.
5. To be fair, if anyone was going to 'subvert' the story, it should've been JJ Abrams. Having one mind butt in to the story somebody else was writing halfway and change everything only causes chaos for both the film studio and the moviegoers.
7. The Chekhov's Gun principle states that if you touch upon something in one part of the story, make sure there is a payoff later on. i.e. if you have Rey and Leia give a very meaningful hug (going as far as to describe it as motherly in the actual script) in one movie, then you must reveal what that meant in the next movie, otherwise, don't include it as it wastes screen time and manipulates the audience.
Similarly, in the case of Snoke, we are introduced to this new, ugly, scary villain, and... learn nothing about him before he is unceremoniously killed. We were introduced to this character, and expected to learn about him in the next movie. Instead he is cynically tossed aside in a scene that could have and probably should have been saved for Episode IX. He could have just as easily been killed pre-TFA and the story would be mostly the same.
8. Think about it this way:
Darth Vader was an INCREDIBLY dangerous, powerful, and quite evil foe. And yet, Luke, seeing a sliver of light in the midst of overwhelming darkness, insisted on not killing Vader, even when his own life at-stake.
In contrast, Luke: standing in front of Ben's bed, sees a sliver of darkness in the midst of mostly light, almost decided to kill Ben, even when no threat was being posed otherwise.
These two ideas of what Luke's character is morally capable of directly contradict each other.
3. Example.
4. He did. He saved the Resistance, inspired hope in the Rebellion, and went out like a hero.
5. If we knew what was going to happen, it would be boring.
7. The Chekhov’s Gun principle states that nothing should be there if it does not affect the story. If we applied that to TLJ, then almost nothing would be there.
Snoke did not need a backstory. All we know it he is an alien, he is probably a Sith, and he leads the FO. Sounds uninteresting.
8. He saw much more darkness in him. Luke is a human being. We all have flaws.
I agree with everything you've been saying, but I don't think you really understand Chekhov's Gun. I mean, sure, a few things like Luke's green milk, don't add to the story but make the movie a bit more enjoyable. Little things like that are fine. I think what he means is that you shouldn't make a big reveal unless it's important somehow. However, Rey's parents being nobody is not a violation of that since it deeply affects the way she looks at herself and progresses her development as a character. On the other hand, it is precisely because of that principle that Snoke's backstory wasn't explored. It wouldn't affect the plot or characters in any serious way if Snoke told Rey that he was actually Darth Plagueis or something. Emarcee
I'm not here to rant or force my beliefs on others. So I am just going to leave my grievances here:
1. TFA too closely mirrors A New Hope. This isn't something I'm particularly mad about, but it's still disappointing.
2. Han Solo dies in the first movie.
3. Kylo Ren is really just an angsty teenager who has no business being the story's main antagonist.
4. Luke dies... and the movie manipulates your emotions as it goes about killing him. First of all: he shows up on salt-hoth to seemingly sacrifice himself to Kylo a-la Obi-Wan. Just when it is revealed he wasn't in real danger (because he was creating a force-projection), we relax for a moment, glad that he wasn't actually going to let Kylo kill him... except, apparently, he just disappears after having over-exerted himself... no. Just no. Besides -- if he could do that why not actually show up in person and unleash a much more destructive force-power? You know, actually end the conflict. Oh right, we still haven't done episode IX. Which is a good Segway into point V
5. TLJ uses scenes that would've worked well in IX, particularly the scene where Kylo betrays Snoke, and then fails to hit the story beats those scenes should have lead to, all for the sake of being 'subversive'.
6. Literally the only original character they don't kill off (not counting the ones they won't give proper screentime to, such as R2 and Chewbacca) is Leia... and as has been mentioned in this topic before, the actress who played her is gone, so... why preserve a character who won't be able to feature in the next movie, but also kill the one people actually wanted to see again?
7. The Rey's parents debacle is a blatant violation of the Chekov's gun principle.
8. We are led to believe that Luke, the same person who redeemed Darth Vader: almost went through with killing his own nephew just because he was showing signs of turning to the dark side. This is absurdly out of character for Luke, and is apparently the entire BASIS for the reason conflict exists in the first place.
I don't intend to push my thoughts on the movie on anyone else... but this topic does ask "why the hate?" and this is my answer to that question.
Alright, I don't want to start a huge debate, but I have pretty simple answers to most of these.
1. Yeah, I know, kinda disappointing, but rarely is it painfully obvious aside from the Starkiller.
2. Sad for sure, especially that he never reunites with Luke, but not a reason to hate the movies. His death was done well.
3. I'm kind of tired of people calling Kylo "angsty" and "emo," he's a complex character who has emotions. If you'd rather have just another Vader, that's fine, but personally, I like Kylo and his character development.
4. You honestly just described the way I felt while first watching that climax pretty well. The only thing is, it left me stunned, not angry or betrayed. I was very confused and kind of in denial as it cut back to Kylo marching into the base. I will never forget it and it was an awesome theatrical experience. His death didn't take long to come to terms with and I'm not too sad since he's pretty much guaranteed to return in IX as a ghost.
5. Snoke's betrayal should not have been put off to IX, and here's why. It wouldn't have been nearly as surprising then. Vader betraying Palpatine in VI was surprising, but if it had happened with Kylo and Snoke in IX, people would have just said it was copying the end of VI just like VII copied IV. But instead, they surprised everyone by doing it a movie early. That was a good twist. The sad part is now people are complaining that they killed off Snoke too early, many of the same people that would have complained about it copying VI if they had waited and done in IX. I really feel sorry for some of these people who just won't let themselves enjoy a movie.
6. Every single one of those decisions was made before Carrie's passing, and they couldn't go back and change it.
7. It is actually very important to the story even though they are nobodies because it defines a large part of Rey's character development.
8. He literally said in the same scene that he described this that it was "the briefest moment of pure instinct," and yet people still use it to try and prove his character was ruined by this film.
5. I'll grant you that, but it still would've been nice to get an actual backstory. All we know about his is that he made the First Order... because reboot. And they he's an ugly emperor... because reboot. We do not know why he created the First Order, how he did it, who he was before the First Order was created, etc.
6. I mean, I'm all for Leia not dying. It let's us imagine what she does next even if she can't be in the next movie.
7. I think you're missing the point: certain elements were present in the first movie that hinted at certain revelations to come. A different director came in and then flipped these expectations on its head by giving a pretty confusing if not all-too-vague answer to the question of who Rey's parents were, and why they abandoned her.
8. He'd become a jedi master by that point... you would think he'd of, you know, mastered his emotions.
I will say this, though, your arguments are refreshingly moderate and well-thought out
If Rey is really nobody, as everyone likes to talk about, why not? She could be stronger, as was indicated in The Last Jedi. Also, if you study her background you will get a better understanding. On Jakku Rey had a computer program where she would practice flying. She learned all the old stories from data tapes she would borrow from Unkar Plutt.
In Episode VII Rey took her first steps, like Luke. Luke blew up the Death Star, Rey did some basic force stuff. Her strengths and weaknesses are in different areas than Luke's.
In Episode VIII Rey makes tons of mistakes. If you watch the deleted scenes she made even more mistakes. She didn't know anything about this power she was dealing with. Luke knew what the Force was in Empire Strikes Back, Rey didn't know what it was in The Last Jedi. Her big weakness is her desire for a family, and her stubbornness that Kylo will turn. She almost got killed by going to The First Order! Kylo Ren saved her life. She couldn't turn him. All she really did was lift a bunch of rocks.
I think Rey's skills in TFA were meant to give an introduction to the character, what she can do. In The Last Jedi they focused on character development, what she can't do. I think in Episode IX Rey will have to learn a lot more. Nobody considers her a powerful Jedi.
I assume you are quoting books. And I will assert that if you have to write a book in order to put a Band-Aid on a plothole, the movie has still failed to make Rey not be a Mary Sue.
Look -- I like Rey. There's great potential there. She has, or rather, had, an intriguing backstory. However, the fact remains that she steps on some of the other character's toes with the abilities she has shown... but never earned. Not on-screen at least. All I'm saying is that she's not as well written as she could've been.
Honestly, I don't think that any of her non-Force abilities are even close to Mary-Sue-y-ness. She can fly and repair ships because she knows how they work from scavenging for parts her whole life. I thought that was well-established. She's good at fighting because she's been using a quarterstaff to defend herself her whole life, also well-established. She also is seen climbing around inside Starkiller Base, even going inside some wall of something, which is reminiscent of the first scene she was seen in, when she was climbing around inside a wrecked Star Destroyer.
You're right. But all the critics loved it! Look it up for your self.
A lot of them hated it also, actually.
Never does everyone in the world agree that a movie is good or bad, but the majority of film critics who were actually looking at the quality of TLJ from a cinematic point of view gave it high praise.
4. He did. He saved the Resistance, inspired hope in the Rebellion, and went out like a hero.
5. If we knew what was going to happen, it would be boring.
7. The Chekhov’s Gun principle states that nothing should be there if it does not affect the story. If we applied that to TLJ, then almost nothing would be there.
Snoke did not need a backstory. All we know it he is an alien, he is probably a Sith, and he leads the FO. Sounds uninteresting.
8. He saw much more darkness in him. Luke is a human being. We all have flaws.
I agree with everything you've been saying, but I don't think you really understand Chekhov's Gun. I mean, sure, a few things like Luke's green milk, don't add to the story but make the movie a bit more enjoyable. Little things like that are fine. I think what he means is that you shouldn't make a big reveal unless it's important somehow. However, Rey's parents being nobody is not a violation of that since it deeply affects the way she looks at herself and progresses her development as a character. On the other hand, it is precisely because of that principle that Snoke's backstory wasn't explored. It wouldn't affect the plot or characters in any serious way if Snoke told Rey that he was actually Darth Plagueis or something. Emarcee
Let’s go to the actual Gun.
"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
It states that if it’s there, it must be important to the story. If it isn’t important, then don’t have it. If we go by that, then almost everything in this movie wouldn’t be there. Almost everything in every movie ever wouldn’t be there.
Never does everyone in the world agree that a movie is good or bad, but the majority of film critics who were actually looking at the quality of TLJ from a cinematic point of view gave it high praise.
To be fair, those particular critics were likely detached or removed from the actual context of the larger Star Wars franchise.
I can absolutely agree that the movie itself is of high quality... but it's a tough pill to swallow when you remember the original trilogy, and now have to watch how useless your favorite characters have become. The movie itself seems to be aware of this since it literally says, "Let go of the past, kill it if you have to." Implying that us as the audience should simply let go of our memories and force ourselves to enjoy the new content that is being put out... see, I, and many people like me, either can't or won't do that. And I'm proud of that : P
I agree with everything you've been saying, but I don't think you really understand Chekhov's Gun. I mean, sure, a few things like Luke's green milk, don't add to the story but make the movie a bit more enjoyable. Little things like that are fine. I think what he means is that you shouldn't make a big reveal unless it's important somehow. However, Rey's parents being nobody is not a violation of that since it deeply affects the way she looks at herself and progresses her development as a character. On the other hand, it is precisely because of that principle that Snoke's backstory wasn't explored. It wouldn't affect the plot or characters in any serious way if Snoke told Rey that he was actually Darth Plagueis or something. Emarcee
Let’s go to the actual Gun.
"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
It states that if it’s there, it must be important to the story. If it isn’t important, then don’t have it. If we go by that, then almost everything in this movie wouldn’t be there. Almost everything in every movie ever wouldn’t be there.
I am looking at key story elements here. Obviously Chekov's gun is only useful for key elements of a story, not stuff that goes on in a background. I mean, if Chekov's gun were to be completely applies, one of the best things about Star Wars: the bizarre extras, just wouldn't be there.
However -- Chekov's gun is still a useful principle to have when you are examining key story elements.
When the script of one movie describes a certain hug as being motherly that is evidence that the director of that first movie was trying to hint at something.
Honestly -- Disney's mistake was not letting JJ write the WHOLE story down. Having one person write a section of a story and getting another one to write the middle of it is only going to cause problems. The reason TFA was so similar to A New Hope was because they were trying to create a setup -- and what better way to create a setup than to write a completely new story using a structure that has already been successful?
The problem is that TLJ removes some of the building blocks that TFA had set up, and tries to make the egregious claim that those story elements didn't matter, and then tosses them over the shoulder much in the same way Luke does to his lost lightsaber (which, how it was recovered is still completely unexplained). By trying to assert that Rey's parents are 'nobody' they turn the relationship Rey had with Han and Leia into something of a red herring.
