Religion does not require a book to be real. And I think you mean BC.
No I don't because it's the twenty-first century, and people don't say BC and AD anymore. It doesn't make a difference anyways.
I didn't know that after the year 2000 we all agreed to use CE and BCE.
✠✙ What once was old doth fade away/But Former Glory stays the same ✙✠ •••Unity•••Duty•••DESTINY••• ***EST. 2006*** • 9/11/01 • BCC: 2010-2014 • EX-TER-MIN-ATE! –Dalek
It's probably just that he's traced his family back further than the rest of us, and so knows more about its cool heritage.
Hey, Keplers, how did you trace your family history back, anyway?
Ancestry.com for most of it, I believe. Lots and lots of research into local/federal records. We compiled it in... 2007, I believe, for my grandparents' fiftieth anniversary. We traced my paternal grandmother and grandfather's lines.
✠✙ What once was old doth fade away/But Former Glory stays the same ✙✠ •••Unity•••Duty•••DESTINY••• ***EST. 2006*** • 9/11/01 • BCC: 2010-2014 • EX-TER-MIN-ATE! –Dalek
I still consider ussr much higher than mao's china or the Khmer rouge, sure we killed some folks, But we also lifted millions of people out of poverty. Brought literacy to the masses. Created a massive industrilaized superpower. Was the ussr flawed? yes, but so are all countries (Except Finland ). the government may have committed horrific autrocities but the people were by far some of the best during the ussr. Its hard for westernsers to understand this but the Asian (or eastern) mindset is just far more accustomed to authoritarian leadership and to many people in Russia and China and other eastern countries a strong government is a necessity not a hinderance. Now some might say wha about Japan? Japan changed a lot since 1945. South Korea changed a lot also but we must forget SK had a dictator for its first 2 decades or so.
"Sure, we killed some folks"
Do you not hear what's wrong with that sentence? You're causally dismissing deaths. That should never, ever, be done, not if it's even one death, and we are discussing TENS OF MILLIONS!!!!!!!
"Lifted millions out of Poverty"
You mean after millions upon millions died in the collectivization, either by being "liquidated" or by starving to death?
"Brought literacy to the masses"
Sure, if you read and wrote the books the government wanted you to read, and if you didn't speak against it. Otherwise you might be tortured and murdered.
"Created a massive industrial superpower"
For a while, yes. Even evil governments can, at least for a while, be at least somewhat economically successful. It's fine if you ignore all the oppression and murder and poverty and how they're still backward and eventually it all falls apart and they could probably achieved far more success without the mass murder if they had just implemented smart, capitalist economic policies that actually work.
"Was the ussr flawed? yes, but so are all countries"
Not all countries are evil dictatorships.
"the government may have committed horrific autrocities but the people were by far some of the best during the ussr."
Maybe they weren't. Probably. The people in oppressed countries are seldom as evil as their goverments.
"Its hard for westernsers to understand this but the Asian (or eastern) mindset is just far more accustomed to authoritarian leadership and to many people in Russia and China and other eastern countries a strong government is a necessity not a hinderance"
Several points:
1. The "you just don't/can't understand argument is one of the lamest, weakest, and oldest in the book.
2. Oh, people are accustomed to this evil, it's fine no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!
Even if that is true, just because people are accustomed to evil does not justify it!!!!! The only reason they would be accustomed is because people were evil in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And, those dictatorships try to suppress knowledge of freedom and liberty!!!!
And, as for viewing it as a necessity, not a hindrance,
(deep breath)
I IMAGINE THE TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE MURDERED BY THE SOVIET UNION WOULD HAVE TO SOMETHING TO SAY AGAINST THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chill out. All you know is about the failures, failure only gives a one sided history. If I judged American history by just viewing at the negatives, I would see them as nothing more but indigenous opressors, slave masters, persecutors of minorities and invaders of peaceful countries. You have to look at both sides of the coin. I am being as reasonable as possible. Do you know aby of the people who died? No. Then why are you bothered by there deaths. Did the ussr do anything bad to you? No. Then why do you care. The ussr probably benefitted America as it drove a clear and coherent foreign policy aswell as help the development of many new technologies in competition with the ussr.
Eh no... we were invaded and suffered 20 million in casulaties about as much as the entire axis front.
The reason they fought with the Nazis was because Hitler broke the nonagression pact. The reason they allied themselves with us is because they wanted to come out of the war with more power.
We didn't want to increase power of the ussr. Stalins main goal (like all Russian foreign policy) was to get as much land inbetween the west and Moscow, to prevent anyone from rapidly invading and taking over the country.
What facts? The Soviet Union was a brutal, evil dictatorship that oppressed freedom and sadistically tortured and murdered anyone who disagreed, and tried to prevent it's people from even knowing about other options?
What nation tried to starve the people of West Berlin in an attempt to take control of it? The Soviet Union. What nations kept the city alive by air for almost a year in the face of all the odds? America and the UK.
What nation established similar evil regimes throughout eastern Europe that tried to prevent any of their people from going to the west for a better life? The Soviet Union. Which countries helped the people of Western Europe establish Free Republics whose freedom and and prosperity attracted people from the oppressed east? America and the UK.
Which countries had rigged elections and one party systems that crushed all opposition? The Soviet Union and the regimes it established. Which countries have free political systems with people with drastically opposed viewpoints in office?
Most of Europe now. And why? Because America stood against Soviet tyranny and oppression until the countries of Eastern Europe could rise up and throw off their chains imposed by the Soviets and claim Freedom.
Those are the basic facts.
Great propaganda. America stood against tyranny and now the east is no longer oppressed. The only thing that's wrong is the massive amount of poor people across eastern Europe, rich oligarchs controlling most power and resources, wealth inequality is now rampant along with mass corruption, and far right movements are promoting extreme rhetoric to oppress minorities. Now that's freedom
I still consider ussr much higher than mao's china or the Khmer rouge, sure we killed some folks, But we also lifted millions of people out of poverty. Brought literacy to the masses. Created a massive industrilaized superpower. Was the ussr flawed? yes, but so are all countries (Except Finland ). the government may have committed horrific autrocities but the people were by far some of the best during the ussr. Its hard for westernsers to understand this but the Asian (or eastern) mindset is just far more accustomed to authoritarian leadership and to many people in Russia and China and other eastern countries a strong government is a necessity not a hinderance. Now some might say wha about Japan? Japan changed a lot since 1945. South Korea changed a lot also but we must forget SK had a dictator for its first 2 decades or so.
I agree with your idea about the Eastern mindset, but please don't handwave seventy years of atrocities and terror with "but they also built roads!"
Did we kill a lot of ppl? Yes. A lot of ppl died from bad policy. I don't know but when ever I speak to my friends (all my friends are from eastern countries) none of them think that the mass deaths were all that impactful. Yeah I know we are very cold people . I understand we messed up really badly, but we understood our mistakes and fixed them post stalin's reign. You cant blame one individual for the countrys entire history.
Do you not hear what's wrong with that sentence? You're causally dismissing deaths. That should never, ever, be done, not if it's even one death, and we are discussing TENS OF MILLIONS!!!!!!!
"Lifted millions out of Poverty"
You mean after millions upon millions died in the collectivization, either by being "liquidated" or by starving to death?
"Brought literacy to the masses"
Sure, if you read and wrote the books the government wanted you to read, and if you didn't speak against it. Otherwise you might be tortured and murdered.
"Created a massive industrial superpower"
For a while, yes. Even evil governments can, at least for a while, be at least somewhat economically successful. It's fine if you ignore all the oppression and murder and poverty and how they're still backward and eventually it all falls apart and they could probably achieved far more success without the mass murder if they had just implemented smart, capitalist economic policies that actually work.
"Was the ussr flawed? yes, but so are all countries"
Not all countries are evil dictatorships.
"the government may have committed horrific autrocities but the people were by far some of the best during the ussr."
Maybe they weren't. Probably. The people in oppressed countries are seldom as evil as their goverments.
"Its hard for westernsers to understand this but the Asian (or eastern) mindset is just far more accustomed to authoritarian leadership and to many people in Russia and China and other eastern countries a strong government is a necessity not a hinderance"
Several points:
1. The "you just don't/can't understand argument is one of the lamest, weakest, and oldest in the book.
2. Oh, people are accustomed to this evil, it's fine no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!
Even if that is true, just because people are accustomed to evil does not justify it!!!!! The only reason they would be accustomed is because people were evil in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And, those dictatorships try to suppress knowledge of freedom and liberty!!!!
And, as for viewing it as a necessity, not a hindrance,
(deep breath)
I IMAGINE THE TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE MURDERED BY THE SOVIET UNION WOULD HAVE TO SOMETHING TO SAY AGAINST THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chill out. All you know is about the failures, failure only gives a one sided history. If I judged American history by just viewing at the negatives, I would see them as nothing more but indigenous opressors, slave masters, persecutors of minorities and invaders of peaceful countries. You have to look at both sides of the coin. I am being as reasonable as possible. Do you know aby of the people who died? No. Then why are you bothered by there deaths. Did the ussr do anything bad to you? No. Then why do you care. The ussr probably benefitted America as it drove a clear and coherent foreign policy aswell as help the development of many new technologies in competition with the ussr.
Why am I bothered? Why do I care?!!!!!!!
I care because I have a conscience!!!!!!! And a heart!!!! and I care about every single last person on this planet, a single death, of a person of whom I know nothing, on the other side of the world, fills me with horror and mourning. So it does not matter that it did not affect me, it was evil, and wrong, and fills me with righteous anger at the people who did it, as every person with conscience should be.
Something does not have to affect you for it to be wrong and for you to care.
As for your comment about America, yes, we have many Black Spots in our history. I cannot and do not deny it. And I am also filled with mourning and righteous anger over those incidents.
And I would rather America not have been benefited, it would mean the Soviet Union never was. By which I mean the Government, not the people by the way.
But since you don't seem top understand how someone could care about someone they don't know, I see no point in continuing this discussion.
What facts? The Soviet Union was a brutal, evil dictatorship that oppressed freedom and sadistically tortured and murdered anyone who disagreed, and tried to prevent it's people from even knowing about other options?
What nation tried to starve the people of West Berlin in an attempt to take control of it? The Soviet Union. What nations kept the city alive by air for almost a year in the face of all the odds? America and the UK.
What nation established similar evil regimes throughout eastern Europe that tried to prevent any of their people from going to the west for a better life? The Soviet Union. Which countries helped the people of Western Europe establish Free Republics whose freedom and and prosperity attracted people from the oppressed east? America and the UK.
Which countries had rigged elections and one party systems that crushed all opposition? The Soviet Union and the regimes it established. Which countries have free political systems with people with drastically opposed viewpoints in office?
Most of Europe now. And why? Because America stood against Soviet tyranny and oppression until the countries of Eastern Europe could rise up and throw off their chains imposed by the Soviets and claim Freedom.
Those are the basic facts.
Great propaganda. America stood against tyranny and now the east is no longer oppressed. The only thing that's wrong is the massive amount of poor people across eastern Europe, rich oligarchs controlling most power and resources, wealth inequality is now rampant along with mass corruption, and far right movements are promoting extreme rhetoric to oppress minorities. Now that's freedom
You mean as opposed to an evil sadistic government controlling every single resource and aspect of the economy and oppressing and murdering anyone who speaks against them?
The economies were, in general, far, far, far worse under communist oppression, as the stupid Marxist policies fell apart, which, combined with oppression of freedom, the ability to speak your mind, for or against the Government without being oppressed or arrested and brutally tortured physically and psychologically, is why the peoples of those countries rose up by themselves and overthrew the communist, USSR established governments, and chose freedom.
It's probably just that he's traced his family back further than the rest of us, and so knows more about its cool heritage.
Probably I know tragically little about my family heritage
I know that at least one side of my family immigrated from Germany. The other side has English and Irish roots, so I don't know how long they've been in America.
