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May 31, 2017 14:52:00 GMT
Post by mythmaster1 on May 31, 2017 14:52:00 GMT
{JAMMERS! -Evil!- ONLY!} OK, I don't know where you stand on the MWE spectrum, but I'd say that once you figure out losses, retreat immediately with you army. That is, retreat to the wall you made. You're going to need the protection of the wall in order to prevent KK's tanks destroying you.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
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May 31, 2017 16:11:08 GMT
Post by Shamrock on May 31, 2017 16:11:08 GMT
Shamrock , while your troops may have a height advantage, from what I've seen you never said they took cover. Though I don't deny some of them likely took cover, your troops were more exposed than mine. And again, I emphasize the use of pavises on 8L's part. That is sufficient cover, and while it doesn't eliminate losses, it vastly reduces them. So I'd say your losses were more than just slightly larger than mine. Not greatly, but a good deal. I'll restate what I asked 8L; where on earth did they get pavises, and learn how to use them? That is wildly fanon.
I drink tea.
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Post by Rex on Jun 1, 2017 1:17:32 GMT
Shamrock , while your troops may have a height advantage, from what I've seen you never said they took cover. Though I don't deny some of them likely took cover, your troops were more exposed than mine. And again, I emphasize the use of pavises on 8L's part. That is sufficient cover, and while it doesn't eliminate losses, it vastly reduces them. So I'd say your losses were more than just slightly larger than mine. Not greatly, but a good deal. I'll restate what I asked 8L; where on earth did they get pavises, and learn how to use them? That is wildly fanon. Where they got them, I'm not sure. But apparently he had brought them in the first place. As for using them, I don't see how that's an issue at all. It's a large shield designed to protect the entire person. It's not like they couldn't use them. And it's nowhere near as fanon as Moria orcs using tanks. KitKat, what's your take on this?
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Post by KitKat on Jun 1, 2017 1:59:52 GMT
I'll restate what I asked 8L; where on earth did they get pavises, and learn how to use them? That is wildly fanon. Where they got them, I'm not sure. But apparently he had brought them in the first place. As for using them, I don't see how that's an issue at all. It's a large shield designed to protect the entire person. It's not like they couldn't use them. And it's nowhere near as fanon as Moria orcs using tanks. KitKat , what's your take on this? For me, pavises are standard equipment for most of my range units. From what I can find, the same can be said of 8L's guild sentinels, as they also have pavises in their unit description. There really isn't much to using a pavise: stick it in the ground, hide behind it while you're reloading.
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Post by Rex on Jun 1, 2017 2:24:19 GMT
Where they got them, I'm not sure. But apparently he had brought them in the first place. As for using them, I don't see how that's an issue at all. It's a large shield designed to protect the entire person. It's not like they couldn't use them. And it's nowhere near as fanon as Moria orcs using tanks. KitKat , what's your take on this? For me, pavises are standard equipment for most of my range units. From what I can find, the same can be said of 8L's guild sentinels, as they also have pavises in their unit description. There really isn't much to using a pavise: stick it in the ground, hide behind it while you're reloading. Exactly what I thought, thank you.
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Post by Shamrock on Jun 1, 2017 8:53:02 GMT
Where they got them, I'm not sure. But apparently he had brought them in the first place. As for using them, I don't see how that's an issue at all. It's a large shield designed to protect the entire person. It's not like they couldn't use them. And it's nowhere near as fanon as Moria orcs using tanks. KitKat , what's your take on this? For me, pavises are standard equipment for most of my range units. From what I can find, the same can be said of 8L's guild sentinels, as they also have pavises in their unit description. There really isn't much to using a pavise: stick it in the ground, hide behind it while you're reloading. They live in a forest. There is no canon evidence for Silvan elves using formations and large shields, other than the Hobbit Triology, which is such an insult to Tolkien that we really shouldn't be including it in canon.
I drink tea.
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Post by mythmaster1 on Jun 1, 2017 14:00:18 GMT
For me, pavises are standard equipment for most of my range units. From what I can find, the same can be said of 8L's guild sentinels, as they also have pavises in their unit description. There really isn't much to using a pavise: stick it in the ground, hide behind it while you're reloading. They live in a forest. There is no canon evidence for Silvan elves using formations and large shields, other than the Hobbit Triology, which is such an insult to Tolkien that we really shouldn't be including it in canon. Um. . . Not quite true. While they didn't use anything super big, their were some decent sized shields in the shield-wall like formation in the flashback at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
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Post by Shamrock on Jun 1, 2017 14:41:43 GMT
They live in a forest. There is no canon evidence for Silvan elves using formations and large shields, other than the Hobbit Triology, which is such an insult to Tolkien that we really shouldn't be including it in canon. Um. . . Not quite true. While they didn't use anything super big, their were some decent sized shields in the shield-wall like formation in the flashback at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Actually, those weren't Silvan elves. The armies of Oropher of Greenwood and Amroth of Lorien gharged to soon at the Battle of the Dagorlad, and were pushed south to the Dead Marshes. The elves in the flashback wer eudner the command of Elrond, meaning they were the Noldorin Host of Gilgalad.
I drink tea.
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Post by Rex on Jun 1, 2017 19:45:36 GMT
For me, pavises are standard equipment for most of my range units. From what I can find, the same can be said of 8L's guild sentinels, as they also have pavises in their unit description. There really isn't much to using a pavise: stick it in the ground, hide behind it while you're reloading. They live in a forest. There is no canon evidence for Silvan elves using formations and large shields, other than the Hobbit Triology, which is such an insult to Tolkien that we really shouldn't be including it in canon. Yes, they live in a forest, but when they go to war, there is a good chance it will be in an area without forests. This likely means that there will be little cover, and, given that the elves especially rely on archers, it seems senseless for them to go out to war and leave one of their most valuable units exposed. It's perfectly logical that they would have thought over their position and equipped their soldiers in whatever way possible to counter that weakness. Hence the use of the large shields. And how would it be an insult to Tolkien? He never said otherwise, and I doubt he'd be angry if we had elves protect their archers with shields.
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Post by Rex on Jun 1, 2017 20:08:00 GMT
*An army of Mirkwood elves arrives with siege engines, staying out of range for now with Lorien elves and the dwarves.*
OOC: Units of the army:
250 Swordsmen 200 Spearmen 200 Silvan Archers 275 Maethyr I-Thewair 15 Hir-E-Ech 15 Hir-E-Lang
Total: 955 (1,716 MWE)
30 Trebuchets (450 SWE)
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Post by KitKat on Jun 2, 2017 1:55:32 GMT
For me, pavises are standard equipment for most of my range units. From what I can find, the same can be said of 8L's guild sentinels, as they also have pavises in their unit description. There really isn't much to using a pavise: stick it in the ground, hide behind it while you're reloading. They live in a forest. There is no canon evidence for Silvan elves using formations and large shields, other than the Hobbit Triology, which is such an insult to Tolkien that we really shouldn't be including it in canon. To me, it seems like a pretty insignificant violation. Yeah, technically we don't have any instances where the Elves of Lothlorien used or even had shields, but is it really that big of a deal? Should we ban Rohan from having any non-cavalry units because we never saw any of them fight on foot? Plus, we really only have one detailed instance of the Galadhrim in combat, and that was in the Two Towers movie with Haldir and his archers (who were already in a castle).
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Post by Shamrock on Jun 2, 2017 10:12:51 GMT
They live in a forest. There is no canon evidence for Silvan elves using formations and large shields, other than the Hobbit Triology, which is such an insult to Tolkien that we really shouldn't be including it in canon. Yes, they live in a forest, but when they go to war, there is a good chance it will be in an area without forests. This likely means that there will be little cover, and, given that the elves especially rely on archers, it seems senseless for them to go out to war and leave one of their most valuable units exposed. It's perfectly logical that they would have thought over their position and equipped their soldiers in whatever way possible to counter that weakness. Hence the use of the large shields. And how would it be an insult to Tolkien? He never said otherwise, and I doubt he'd be angry if we had elves protect their archers with shields. They don'y have any skilled smiths, though. They have a handful of Noldor, but other than that, it's full of Silvan elves, who prefer dancing to worrying. Simply put, there is no evidence for them having any sort of large shield. The Hobbit movies in general are such an insult to Tolkien, I'm not going to point anything out.
I drink tea.
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Post by mythmaster1 on Jun 2, 2017 12:38:39 GMT
They live in a forest. There is no canon evidence for Silvan elves using formations and large shields, other than the Hobbit Triology, which is such an insult to Tolkien that we really shouldn't be including it in canon. To me, it seems like a pretty insignificant violation. Yeah, technically we don't have any instances where the Elves of Lothlorien used or even had shields, but is it really that big of a deal? Should we ban Rohan from having any non-cavalry units because we never saw any of them fight on foot? Plus, we really only have one detailed instance of the Galadhrim in combat, and that was in the Two Towers movie with Haldir and his archers (who were already in a castle). Um, while I am not 100% sure of this, I Believe Rohan had recruited itself a small infantry when going to war against Gondor, although I think said infantry were also the main units they left behind at Edoras/Helms Deep. Also, his problem is Pavises, although I actually have an argument, not including canonicity, about them. If the Orcs have a height advantage, what good will a Pavise do? Unless someone is holding it over their head?
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
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Jun 2, 2017 23:21:09 GMT
-last edited on Jun 2, 2017 23:22:38 GMT by Rex
Post by Rex on Jun 2, 2017 23:21:09 GMT
Yes, they live in a forest, but when they go to war, there is a good chance it will be in an area without forests. This likely means that there will be little cover, and, given that the elves especially rely on archers, it seems senseless for them to go out to war and leave one of their most valuable units exposed. It's perfectly logical that they would have thought over their position and equipped their soldiers in whatever way possible to counter that weakness. Hence the use of the large shields. And how would it be an insult to Tolkien? He never said otherwise, and I doubt he'd be angry if we had elves protect their archers with shields. They don'y have any skilled smiths, though. They have a handful of Noldor, but other than that, it's full of Silvan elves, who prefer dancing to worrying. Simply put, there is no evidence for them having any sort of large shield. The Hobbit movies in general are such an insult to Tolkien, I'm not going to point anything out. Two points: 1) If they have no skilled smiths, than why haven't you protested against them having swords? Those are even more complex than pavises, and yet it seems fine that they have these; and 2) Assuming we followed canon that closely, than the Silvan elves wouldn't even be fighting now, and, according to canon, there is no way the Moria orcs could ever enter Lorien due to the magical powers bestowed upon the elves. Simply put, we don't always follow canon exactly, and in cases such as these, it's completely fair. If we followed canon as strictly as you seem to want, Moria orcs would only have one elite unit: the cave troll. And the cave troll would smash just as many orcs as elves. So from what you're saying, we might as well get rid of non-canonical units too, right? And I whole-heartedly agree, but getting rid of shields? No. Just no.
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Post by KitKat on Jun 3, 2017 3:01:10 GMT
Yes, they live in a forest, but when they go to war, there is a good chance it will be in an area without forests. This likely means that there will be little cover, and, given that the elves especially rely on archers, it seems senseless for them to go out to war and leave one of their most valuable units exposed. It's perfectly logical that they would have thought over their position and equipped their soldiers in whatever way possible to counter that weakness. Hence the use of the large shields. And how would it be an insult to Tolkien? He never said otherwise, and I doubt he'd be angry if we had elves protect their archers with shields. They don'y have any skilled smiths, though. They have a handful of Noldor, but other than that, it's full of Silvan elves, who prefer dancing to worrying. Simply put, there is no evidence for them having any sort of large shield. The Hobbit movies in general are such an insult to Tolkien, I'm not going to point anything out. As I said before, it seems like a pretty insignificant violation. However, if you consider the regular LotR movies acceptably accurate in portrayal, then the Galadhrim do have at least some decent smiths. Haldir in his archers had metal armor, and crafting armor is much more difficult than making a shield. Plus, many shields are actually made of wood.
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