I'd say you could have one as your character, but then armies are the main premise of the RP, so it's up to you whether or not you want your character like that.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I'd say you could have one as your character, but then armies are the main premise of the RP, so it's up to you whether or not you want your character like that.
wait a second, isn't this the unit you are using in Gundabad? also, this seems a bit OP in this kind of an RP. We don't allow Major Fires or explosives for a reason, and this is basically you creating a unit whose main weapon is fire. And is completely immune to fire. And is NOT over 20 MWE. Yes, I know that until that sentence, you were going to point out my Carts, but I'm making the distinction first.
From what I can see, these have a very limited range, and it definitely seems to be no more a cause of a major fire than any projectiles used by some siege weapons. And they wear fire-resistant armor because that's the main danger they face, since they handle it at such close range. However, that doesn't mean other troops are incapable of taking them out. Someone with a powerful crossbow could take them out quite easily, and as KK said, they're vulnerable in close combat as well. That doesn't seem OP to me at all, and I think the MWE is fine.
@mm: No, those are my warrior monks. They have medium fireproof armor, and various melee weapons. And to clarify, it's the unnatural fires (details below) that are banned, not "major" fires. You can light a whole fortress on (I think the very definition of a "major fire" ) if you have the time and means, and there's nothing wrong with that. The fires that are banned are those that don't follow the usual ways of fire; for example: extreme rapid combustion (i.e. explosives), ultra-high heat generation, most gaseous combustibles (mainly because they tend towards other illegal traits, like explosions), unorthodox reactions (i.e. quicklime, Greek Fire), and being particularly difficult to extinguish or otherwise limit damage from (i.e. Greek Fire). Also, it seems that there are a lot of units in general that use combustible oil, and other sorts of fire (and it is pretty much ubiquitous in siege warfare). This unit is just more focused on using fire than other forms of physical combat.
@rex: Correct. Just to be more specific, their range is longer than that of a spear, but just slightly shorter than a pike. And while they're pretty much immune to fire, their armor is no better or worse against solid projectiles and melee weapons than any other heavy Dwarven armor.
From what I can see, these have a very limited range, and it definitely seems to be no more a cause of a major fire than any projectiles used by some siege weapons. And they wear fire-resistant armor because that's the main danger they face, since they handle it at such close range. However, that doesn't mean other troops are incapable of taking them out. Someone with a powerful crossbow could take them out quite easily, and as KK said, they're vulnerable in close combat as well. That doesn't seem OP to me at all, and I think the MWE is fine.
@mm: No, those are my warrior monks. They have medium fireproof armor, and various melee weapons. And to clarify, it's the unnatural fires (details below) that are banned, not "major" fires. You can light a whole fortress on (I think the very definition of a "major fire" ) if you have the time and means, and there's nothing wrong with that. The fires that are banned are those that don't follow the usual ways of fire; for example: extreme rapid combustion (i.e. explosives), ultra-high heat generation, most gaseous combustibles (mainly because they tend towards other illegal traits, like explosions), unorthodox reactions (i.e. quicklime, Greek Fire), and being particularly difficult to extinguish or otherwise limit damage from (i.e. Greek Fire). Also, it seems that there are a lot of units in general that use combustible oil, and other sorts of fire (and it is pretty much ubiquitous in siege warfare). This unit is just more focused on using fire than other forms of physical combat.
@rex: Correct. Just to be more specific, their range is longer than that of a spear, but just slightly shorter than a pike. And while they're pretty much immune to fire, their armor is no better or worse against solid projectiles and melee weapons than any other heavy Dwarven armor.
@mm: No, those are my warrior monks. They have medium fireproof armor, and various melee weapons. And to clarify, it's the unnatural fires (details below) that are banned, not "major" fires. You can light a whole fortress on (I think the very definition of a "major fire" ) if you have the time and means, and there's nothing wrong with that. The fires that are banned are those that don't follow the usual ways of fire; for example: extreme rapid combustion (i.e. explosives), ultra-high heat generation, most gaseous combustibles (mainly because they tend towards other illegal traits, like explosions), unorthodox reactions (i.e. quicklime, Greek Fire), and being particularly difficult to extinguish or otherwise limit damage from (i.e. Greek Fire). Also, it seems that there are a lot of units in general that use combustible oil, and other sorts of fire (and it is pretty much ubiquitous in siege warfare). This unit is just more focused on using fire than other forms of physical combat.
@rex: Correct. Just to be more specific, their range is longer than that of a spear, but just slightly shorter than a pike. And while they're pretty much immune to fire, their armor is no better or worse against solid projectiles and melee weapons than any other heavy Dwarven armor.
In other words, their armor is invincible.
No more than other Dwarven heavy armor, so no. Though in all honesty, I probably under-estimate (at least in practice) the efficacy of said heavy armor.
From what I can see, these have a very limited range, and it definitely seems to be no more a cause of a major fire than any projectiles used by some siege weapons. And they wear fire-resistant armor because that's the main danger they face, since they handle it at such close range. However, that doesn't mean other troops are incapable of taking them out. Someone with a powerful crossbow could take them out quite easily, and as KK said, they're vulnerable in close combat as well. That doesn't seem OP to me at all, and I think the MWE is fine.
@mm: No, those are my warrior monks. They have medium fireproof armor, and various melee weapons. And to clarify, it's the unnatural fires (details below) that are banned, not "major" fires. You can light a whole fortress on (I think the very definition of a "major fire" ) if you have the time and means, and there's nothing wrong with that. The fires that are banned are those that don't follow the usual ways of fire; for example: extreme rapid combustion (i.e. explosives), ultra-high heat generation, most gaseous combustibles (mainly because they tend towards other illegal traits, like explosions), unorthodox reactions (i.e. quicklime, Greek Fire), and being particularly difficult to extinguish or otherwise limit damage from (i.e. Greek Fire). Also, it seems that there are a lot of units in general that use combustible oil, and other sorts of fire (and it is pretty much ubiquitous in siege warfare). This unit is just more focused on using fire than other forms of physical combat.
@rex: Correct. Just to be more specific, their range is longer than that of a spear, but just slightly shorter than a pike. And while they're pretty much immune to fire, their armor is no better or worse against solid projectiles and melee weapons than any other heavy Dwarven armor.
Well, if those issues are solved, and there aren't any other objections, I suppose I might use some of these guys soon.
Error 404: This weapon is not found. Please try again later.
Seriously tho, I'm trying to find this weapon, and all I'm getting are dogs and rock albums. Do you mean the goedendag?
I might. I recently learned about it, and it's basically a club with iron spikes protruding out of it.
That's not what a goedendag is. A goedendag is a Flemish weapon that consists of a large stave of wood with one spike protruding from the end. Essentially, a short spear with a thick shaft.
I'd like to submit my two cents on something that has come to my attention in the RP.
I'm having some trouble with MM's vast roster of highly elite and specialized units for Moria. In canon, the Orcs of Moria were little more than a rabble of goblins using whatever weapons they could get their hands on. They were a weak fighting force with little to no training or organization, relying on their primal instincts and bloodlust to win fights.
In the movies, the Orcs are again an unorganized rabble, but much more so than in the books. They are simply slaves of the Balrog, who they worship as a god.
My point is that Moria would never have access to the advanced armor, weapons, and technology MM has given them. I can understand the dwarven armor and weapons, but it is unlikely that the Orcs would preserve the war machine blueprints of the Dwarves, perhaps burning them or even leaving them to rot away in the blackness of the abandoned mines.
Many of these units make sense for Gundabad, Dol Guldur, or Mordor, but not Moria. The Orcs of the Misty Mountains would rely on massive swarms of weak Snaga orcs or Goblins to accomplish their tasks. There is certainly room for heavy infantry and Warg riders, although they would not be as powerful as most other units of the same class in other factions.
Another thing: how do you get Cave Trolls to wear armor? Unless Moria had access to Olog-hai, which they didn't, they would have a horrendous time trying to get armor onto the Cave Trolls in their army. Any Cave Troll fighting in Moria's army would most likely be more of an enslaved beast who was beaten into a fury before he was released on the foes of the Orcs. Any Orc who tried to get armor onto one of these monsters would be smashed instantly. The Cave Trolls would hate the Orcs, but due to their low intelligence, they would resort to smashing any Orc who got close enough to him.
The only way for the Orcs to capture one of these creatures would be for them to catch one while it was hibernating and chain him in place. If he awoke, the Orcs were doomed.
In conclusion, I would like MM to use a more canonical approach to Moria in the future and move most of his elites to either Gundabad's or Dol Guldur's roster.
@mm: No, those are my warrior monks. They have medium fireproof armor, and various melee weapons. And to clarify, it's the unnatural fires (details below) that are banned, not "major" fires. You can light a whole fortress on (I think the very definition of a "major fire" ) if you have the time and means, and there's nothing wrong with that. The fires that are banned are those that don't follow the usual ways of fire; for example: extreme rapid combustion (i.e. explosives), ultra-high heat generation, most gaseous combustibles (mainly because they tend towards other illegal traits, like explosions), unorthodox reactions (i.e. quicklime, Greek Fire), and being particularly difficult to extinguish or otherwise limit damage from (i.e. Greek Fire). Also, it seems that there are a lot of units in general that use combustible oil, and other sorts of fire (and it is pretty much ubiquitous in siege warfare). This unit is just more focused on using fire than other forms of physical combat.
@rex: Correct. Just to be more specific, their range is longer than that of a spear, but just slightly shorter than a pike. And while they're pretty much immune to fire, their armor is no better or worse against solid projectiles and melee weapons than any other heavy Dwarven armor.
Well, if those issues are solved, and there aren't any other objections, I suppose I might use some of these guys soon.
I take no credit for these units. Most of them are CC's, some of them may be Shamrock's.
Archers
Dol Amroth Archers Worth 1 W/A: Medium chainmail, bows, sidearms. Description: Regular archers of the army.
Sea-Ward Crossbowmen Worth 1.2 W/A: Medium chainmail, crossbow, sidearm Description: These archers carry crossbows that are more powerful than the longbows of standard archers.
Archers of Tirith Aear Worth 1.5 W/A: Heavy mail, bows, sidearms. Description: The soldiers of the Sea-ward are an elite force kept as a regular army, like the normal soldiers of Dol Amroth. These soldiers are good shots and can stand their ground in melee. Infantry
Coastal Marines Worth 1.5 W/A: Mail, shield, sword, javelins. Description: These men guard the coast from corsairs by land or sea.
Men-at-Arms Worth 1 W/A: Mail, light plate armor, shield, sword. Description: Regular swordsmen of the army.
Upclimbers Worth 2 W/A: Heavy shoulder armor and helm, medium mail, Broadsword Description: Named after the Sindarin translation for 'Amroth' and also for what they are best at. They are meant to be the first up ladders on enemy forts, clearing back enemies waiting at the top.
Wardens of Tirith Aear Worth 1.5 W/A: Plate, shield, spear, sidearm. Description: Veteran and well-equipped men of the Sea-ward.
Corsair's Bane Worth: 2 W/A: Plate, shield, longsword or hatchet. Description: When ships are near enough, these deck jumpers are specially trained to sweep onto enemy ships and take them by force. Pirates turn tail and run, when these units are upon their victim's vessels.
Coastal Guard Worth 2 W/A: heavy mail, shield, spear, sidearm. Description: Part of Dol Amroth's military forces tasked with guarding the coast from corsairs.
Guardians of the Tower Worth 3 W/A: Medium plate armor, medium mail, tower shield, pike, sword Description: Even the Prince’s Guards must now go to war. These men are experienced and deadly, and, contrary to appearances, surprisingly versatile.
Guardians of Dol Amroth Worth 5 W/A: Superbly crafted heavy plate, shield, longsword. Description: Warriors of an extreme calibre, who inspire others with their presence.
Cavalry
Knights of Tirith Aear Worth 3 W/A: plate, lance, shield, sidearm. Description: Those who can often become a part of the Sea-ward's force.
Swan Knights of Dol Amroth Worth 7 W/A: Superbly crafted heavy plate, lance, shield, longsword. Each rides a splendid warhorse with heavy armor. Description: Some of the best, if not the best, heavy cavalry in Middle-Earth. The Rohirrim might have more skill, but nothing hits harder than the Knights of the Silver Swan.
I'd like to submit my two cents on something that has come to my attention in the RP.
I'm having some trouble with MM's vast roster of highly elite and specialized units for Moria. In canon, the Orcs of Moria were little more than a rabble of goblins using whatever weapons they could get their hands on. They were a weak fighting force with little to no training or organization, relying on their primal instincts and bloodlust to win fights.
In the movies, the Orcs are again an unorganized rabble, but much more so than in the books. They are simply slaves of the Balrog, who they worship as a god.
My point is that Moria would never have access to the advanced armor, weapons, and technology MM has given them. I can understand the dwarven armor and weapons, but it is unlikely that the Orcs would preserve the war machine blueprints of the Dwarves, perhaps burning them or even leaving them to rot away in the blackness of the abandoned mines.
Many of these units make sense for Gundabad, Dol Guldur, or Mordor, but not Moria. The Orcs of the Misty Mountains would rely on massive swarms of weak Snaga orcs or Goblins to accomplish their tasks. There is certainly room for heavy infantry and Warg riders, although they would not be as powerful as most other units of the same class in other factions.
Another thing: how do you get Cave Trolls to wear armor? Unless Moria had access to Olog-hai, which they didn't, they would have a horrendous time trying to get armor onto the Cave Trolls in their army. Any Cave Troll fighting in Moria's army would most likely be more of an enslaved beast who was beaten into a fury before he was released on the foes of the Orcs. Any Orc who tried to get armor onto one of these monsters would be smashed instantly. The Cave Trolls would hate the Orcs, but due to their low intelligence, they would resort to smashing any Orc who got close enough to him.
The only way for the Orcs to capture one of these creatures would be for them to catch one while it was hibernating and chain him in place. If he awoke, the Orcs were doomed.
In conclusion, I would like MM to use a more canonical approach to Moria in the future and move most of his elites to either Gundabad's or Dol Guldur's roster.
Oh great, Time for some kind of rant argument. OK, so let's first look at my list. I have 24 units that are all fairly weak, and only 3 are over 2.5 MWE. 1 of which being 3 MWE and was going to be 1.2 or something like that until people argued, and two of which have 2 goblins within the unit type, both of which are 2.5. I have 7 Elite Orcish units worth 5 OWE to 5 MWE. These include my most elite archers (both with a slightly different purpose, but otherwise similar), Two elite cavalry (which would, canonically, be more elite than normal orcs), which then leaves another 3 Melee Orcish elite. I then have 2 types of Elite Troll, and numerous tanks, which are just shells. These numbers do not include basic siege units, or orcish types (a.k.a. Basic Orc Archer, Basic orc Pikemen etc. worth .8) This compares to 10 non-elite Gundabad units (not including basic orcish types), 7 Elite Gundabad units, 1 troll, 1 werewolf, and 1 Special Siege Weapon.
As for the Trolls in Armor, It may not be particularily easy, but then it still works. If you like, I'm OK with changing to just Morian Trolls, If I can revert Morian Trolls to a similar state as the HArmored Trolls, as is Canon (a.k.a, nigh impenetrable by arrows, difficult to defeat with javelins etc.) Because that's what I want in trolls. I added armor first in Mordor, where it is canonical (movie standard at least) and then added them to the Morian Roster, as my standard troll. And I like the protection I was (normally) able to get from adding the armor.
So. . . The Tanks. Let's see. . . First off, these tanks are MUCH less advanced then most of KK's tanks. They also (mostly) serve a different purpose. They are troop defense, rather than mobile siege engines. Orcs were great at building innovative stuff, so the simple fact that the dwarves had them (who were not AS innovative as the orcs, just more skilled) implies that Orcs could think of them and build them. In addition, What proof is given that orcs would not use Dwarven ideas and twist them? They would certainely twist them, but outright destroying them all the time? highly unlikely. Thirdly, How many tanks have you seen? I do have numerous types of tanks, but I have used around 200 Tanks of whatever sort, in. . . 4 armies, just about. That is equivelant to 800 Tanks, with 4,000 operators. Do those numbers seem uncanonical to you? Oh and about the blueprints: They don't need them! They look at the gear boxes, figure out why they work, and then make their own Blueprints! If the orcs even need blueprints! These tanks are very basic, little more than cable cars with smaller windows!
OK, so to recap: I have slightly over 3 times the number of Elite units in weaker ones, which is a very large number of weaker units. Of those 7, their is 1 powerful Stealth Unit, 2 Powerful Warg units, 2 Powerful Archers with different types of equipment, 1 lightly armored elite melee and 1 medium armored elite melee unit who has a single purpose. The Trolls, I nowadays only put them in armor to avoid arguments. The Tanks have numerous reasons to be around. Does any of this sound non-canonical?
What I'm guessing caused your confusion is looking at the Unit List I started with, which has many less basic units than my current list, and then watched the movies and realized 'Hey, Their aren't many elite units in Moria! Let's go fix the problem without proper research.' because that I have done that, and I have created a fitting unit list.
Oh, and a point about canonicity; I decided not to join Isengard when CC was around because he was too strict: He had 1 unit worth 5, and about 11 very similar units worth .5-2.5 that were so close to canon that they would always have glaring weak points in their armies, or so I thought. In addition, you're complaining about an armored troll when their are Mammoths in Bree! You're complaining about a cable car when their are Mobile Walls in Erebor! This almost feels like you're trying to weaken my side by forcing me to not fight with my favorite units (Heavily Armored Trolls, Heavy Archers, Tanks) because you can make an argument.
A couple apologies: First, to the mods who have to moderate this, this is a decent sized post. Second, to LegoBuilder: Sorry if it seems like I'm griping, I very much enjoy this RP, and one of the biggest things is the freedom I have. That their aren't set Army lists should show how free each HQ is to make it's army, barring a blatant disregard for Canon. I also feel strongly for Moria, much like Tuvok With Dol Guldur. I do not mean to gripe on you, I just want to defend myself vigorousely from assault.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I might. I recently learned about it, and it's basically a club with iron spikes protruding out of it.
That's not what a goedendag is. A goedendag is a Flemish weapon that consists of a large stave of wood with one spike protruding from the end. Essentially, a short spear with a thick shaft.
then in that case, no. And yeah, I don't see it on the internet either. Well, you have a description, any problems?
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.