They don'y have any skilled smiths, though. They have a handful of Noldor, but other than that, it's full of Silvan elves, who prefer dancing to worrying. Simply put, there is no evidence for them having any sort of large shield.
The Hobbit movies in general are such an insult to Tolkien, I'm not going to point anything out.
Two points: 1) If they have no skilled smiths, than why haven't you protested against them having swords? Those are even more complex than pavises, and yet it seems fine that they have these; and 2) Assuming we followed canon that closely, than the Silvan elves wouldn't even be fighting now, and, according to canon, there is no way the Moria orcs could ever enter Lorien due to the magical powers bestowed upon the elves. Simply put, we don't always follow canon exactly, and in cases such as these, it's completely fair. If we followed canon as strictly as you seem to want, Moria orcs would only have one elite unit: the cave troll. And the cave troll would smash just as many orcs as elves. So from what you're saying, we might as well get rid of non-canonical units too, right?
And I whole-heartedly agree, but getting rid of shields? No. Just no.
1) Swords are far smaller, increasing the likelyhood that survivors would be able to take them undamaged from fallen Noldor around Mordor. 2) That depends on the whim of the RP version of Celeborn. Also, while we can assume they'd never get too far in, it is perfectly canon that they entered the trees, and passed an outpost of the Marchwardens. I'm not saying follow canon to the letter, but giving Silvan elves pavises is like orcs having horses.
Shields enirely, no. But pavises for Silvan elves? NO spells no.
Also, which of the elves were holding the pavises? I was firing from above, so unless some units were leaping forwards and holding the pavises over the heads of the archers, then jumping back again to allow them to fire, they would be of limited use.
{JAMMERS! -Evil!- ONLY!} OK, I don't know where you stand on the MWE spectrum, but I'd say that once you figure out losses, retreat immediately with you army. That is, retreat to the wall you made. You're going to need the protection of the wall in order to prevent KK's tanks destroying you.
They don'y have any skilled smiths, though. They have a handful of Noldor, but other than that, it's full of Silvan elves, who prefer dancing to worrying. Simply put, there is no evidence for them having any sort of large shield.
The Hobbit movies in general are such an insult to Tolkien, I'm not going to point anything out.
As I said before, it seems like a pretty insignificant violation. However, if you consider the regular LotR movies acceptably accurate in portrayal, then the Galadhrim do have at least some decent smiths. Haldir in his archers had metal armor, and crafting armor is much more difficult than making a shield. Plus, many shields are actually made of wood.
I am of the other viewpoint. Mostly, I would, but as those Galadhrim were never there, I am disinclined to allow them as evidence.
As I said before, it seems like a pretty insignificant violation. However, if you consider the regular LotR movies acceptably accurate in portrayal, then the Galadhrim do have at least some decent smiths. Haldir in his archers had metal armor, and crafting armor is much more difficult than making a shield. Plus, many shields are actually made of wood.
I am of the other viewpoint. Mostly, I would, but as those Galadhrim were never there, I am disinclined to allow them as evidence.
So I see. Hence why I said "accurate in portrayal", not in events. Do you consider the LotR movies to be canon where Tolkien does not speak (or at least none of us can find what he wrote about stuff)?
Two points: 1) If they have no skilled smiths, than why haven't you protested against them having swords? Those are even more complex than pavises, and yet it seems fine that they have these; and 2) Assuming we followed canon that closely, than the Silvan elves wouldn't even be fighting now, and, according to canon, there is no way the Moria orcs could ever enter Lorien due to the magical powers bestowed upon the elves. Simply put, we don't always follow canon exactly, and in cases such as these, it's completely fair. If we followed canon as strictly as you seem to want, Moria orcs would only have one elite unit: the cave troll. And the cave troll would smash just as many orcs as elves. So from what you're saying, we might as well get rid of non-canonical units too, right?
And I whole-heartedly agree, but getting rid of shields? No. Just no.
1) Swords are far smaller, increasing the likelyhood that survivors would be able to take them undamaged from fallen Noldor around Mordor. 2) That depends on the whim of the RP version of Celeborn. Also, while we can assume they'd never get too far in, it is perfectly canon that they entered the trees, and passed an outpost of the Marchwardens. I'm not saying follow canon to the letter, but giving Silvan elves pavises is like orcs having horses.
Shields enirely, no. But pavises for Silvan elves? NO spells no.
Also, which of the elves were holding the pavises? I was firing from above, so unless some units were leaping forwards and holding the pavises over the heads of the archers, then jumping back again to allow them to fire, they would be of limited use.
1) How is that even slightly canon? When did Tolkien ever mention that the majority of Lorien's armament came from the fallen Noldor around Mordor? They almost certainly had at least slightly skilled smiths if the could have armor, not scavenging for it among their fallen brothers. 3) We've never done anything like that, and I see no reason for that to change now. Okay, fine, they could do that, but the point is, if we follow it as closely as you suggest, magic would be allowed. And how is protection for elven archers as bad as orcs with horses? The former makes a lot more sense.
How can I emphasize this enough? It's cover for the archers so they don't get smashed. Never does Tolkien say otherwise, and unless the Elves have a death wish, they'll do whatever neessary to preserve their lives in battle.
KitKat mentioned this earlier, I believe one of 8L's units is originally equipped with them. And they could be stationary. All they'd need to do is hold it up, and the archer remains behind it, nocks an arrow, and peeks out from behind to fire the shot, and then repeats the process. There's no need for that exaggerated movement you suggest. xD
1) Swords are far smaller, increasing the likelyhood that survivors would be able to take them undamaged from fallen Noldor around Mordor. 2) That depends on the whim of the RP version of Celeborn. Also, while we can assume they'd never get too far in, it is perfectly canon that they entered the trees, and passed an outpost of the Marchwardens. I'm not saying follow canon to the letter, but giving Silvan elves pavises is like orcs having horses.
Shields enirely, no. But pavises for Silvan elves? NO spells no.
Also, which of the elves were holding the pavises? I was firing from above, so unless some units were leaping forwards and holding the pavises over the heads of the archers, then jumping back again to allow them to fire, they would be of limited use.
1) How is that even slightly canon? When did Tolkien ever mention that the majority of Lorien's armament came from the fallen Noldor around Mordor? They almost certainly had at least slightly skilled smiths if the could have armor, not scavenging for it among their fallen brothers. 3) We've never done anything like that, and I see no reason for that to change now. Okay, fine, they could do that, but the point is, if we follow it as closely as you suggest, magic would be allowed. And how is protection for elven archers as bad as orcs with horses? The former makes a lot more sense.
How can I emphasize this enough? It's cover for the archers so they don't get smashed. Never does Tolkien say otherwise, and unless the Elves have a death wish, they'll do whatever neessary to preserve their lives in battle.
KitKat mentioned this earlier, I believe one of 8L's units is originally equipped with them. And they could be stationary. All they'd need to do is hold it up, and the archer remains behind it, nocks an arrow, and peeks out from behind to fire the shot, and then repeats the process. There's no need for that exaggerated movement you suggest. xD
You did not provide any arguments for why the pavise could block arrows from high above.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
1) How is that even slightly canon? When did Tolkien ever mention that the majority of Lorien's armament came from the fallen Noldor around Mordor? They almost certainly had at least slightly skilled smiths if the could have armor, not scavenging for it among their fallen brothers. 3) We've never done anything like that, and I see no reason for that to change now. Okay, fine, they could do that, but the point is, if we follow it as closely as you suggest, magic would be allowed. And how is protection for elven archers as bad as orcs with horses? The former makes a lot more sense.
How can I emphasize this enough? It's cover for the archers so they don't get smashed. Never does Tolkien say otherwise, and unless the Elves have a death wish, they'll do whatever neessary to preserve their lives in battle.
KitKat mentioned this earlier, I believe one of 8L's units is originally equipped with them. And they could be stationary. All they'd need to do is hold it up, and the archer remains behind it, nocks an arrow, and peeks out from behind to fire the shot, and then repeats the process. There's no need for that exaggerated movement you suggest. xD
You did not provide any arguments for why the pavise could block arrows from high above.
I don't see why an argument is necessary. It isn't like the orcs are so high up and the elves so close that they could just fire directly down on them. All the elves need to do is hold the pavises at an angle to stop the arrows.
You did not provide any arguments for why the pavise could block arrows from high above.
I don't see why an argument is necessary. It isn't like the orcs are so high up and the elves so close that they could just fire directly down on them. All the elves need to do is hold the pavises at an angle to stop the arrows.
Oh, so someone IS holding the pavises?
Also, the orcs are on a large cliff, firing down. Therefore, the angle required to block all the arrows to an elven body, or even just most of them, are therefore going to make the elf unable to draw his bow behind (or under) the pavise, thereby making the pavise next to useless. Also, how big are you thinking this cliff is? And are you registering that the cliffs are on two sides? Other than the movie (which in this case isn't canon) all pictures show pretty high cliffs, which a decent size but nowhere out of arrow range of the cliffside. Therefore, due to being on the cliffs, the orcs arrows would be coming from a near vertical angle once they actually fall to the ground.
Oh, and also, where are these pavises dug into? The ground is all rock here.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I don't see why an argument is necessary. It isn't like the orcs are so high up and the elves so close that they could just fire directly down on them. All the elves need to do is hold the pavises at an angle to stop the arrows.
Oh, so someone IS holding the pavises?
Also, the orcs are on a large cliff, firing down. Therefore, the angle required to block all the arrows to an elven body, or even just most of them, are therefore going to make the elf unable to draw his bow behind (or under) the pavise, thereby making the pavise next to useless. Also, how big are you thinking this cliff is? And are you registering that the cliffs are on two sides? Other than the movie (which in this case isn't canon) all pictures show pretty high cliffs, which a decent size but nowhere out of arrow range of the cliffside. Therefore, due to being on the cliffs, the orcs arrows would be coming from a near vertical angle once they actually fall to the ground.
Oh, and also, where are these pavises dug into? The ground is all rock here.
I thought I made that clear. 8L has a specific unit equipped with pavises, and they're holding them.
Alright, let me try a diagram:
\ \ - - - - - - - \OOO - - - - \ - - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | PE PE PE PE PE
It's pretty rough, but it gives the general idea. The arc is hard to depict. Essentially, though, the elves are not anywhere near as close for the orcs to acheive the effect you mentioned. The elves are far enough back that the arrows aren't coming almost directly down on them, but are coming at a long, sloping angle, shown in red. The pavises, which are held at a 45 degree angle, will block the arrows, allowing the elves to crouch down and prepare for a volley, and then, while still partially covered, move out and fire. Also, the armies were exchanging volleys, not firing at will. This was the description given throughout the battle. So the elves would be protected, and then have time to release a volley back at the orcs.
I don't see how that's an issue. They don't need to be dug into the ground necessarily, just held firmly. Not to mention, the rocks aren't smooth, so that will help give them support if needed.
Also, the orcs are on a large cliff, firing down. Therefore, the angle required to block all the arrows to an elven body, or even just most of them, are therefore going to make the elf unable to draw his bow behind (or under) the pavise, thereby making the pavise next to useless. Also, how big are you thinking this cliff is? And are you registering that the cliffs are on two sides? Other than the movie (which in this case isn't canon) all pictures show pretty high cliffs, which a decent size but nowhere out of arrow range of the cliffside. Therefore, due to being on the cliffs, the orcs arrows would be coming from a near vertical angle once they actually fall to the ground.
Oh, and also, where are these pavises dug into? The ground is all rock here.
I thought I made that clear. 8L has a specific unit equipped with pavises, and they're holding them.
Alright, let me try a diagram:
\ \ - - - - - - - \OOO - - - - \ - - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | PE PE PE PE PE
It's pretty rough, but it gives the general idea. The arc is hard to depict. Essentially, though, the elves are not anywhere near as close for the orcs to acheive the effect you mentioned. The elves are far enough back that the arrows aren't coming almost directly down on them, but are coming at a long, sloping angle, shown in red. The pavises, which are held at a 45 degree angle, will block the arrows, allowing the elves to crouch down and prepare for a volley, and then, while still partially covered, move out and fire. Also, the armies were exchanging volleys, not firing at will. This was the description given throughout the battle. So the elves would be protected, and then have time to release a volley back at the orcs.
I don't see how that's an issue. They don't need to be dug into the ground necessarily, just held firmly. Not to mention, the rocks aren't smooth, so that will help give them support if needed.
Actually, it would be more like this:
____ ___ ___ OOO __ l __ l __ l _ l _ l PEPEPEPEPEPEPE
As the arrow goes further, the arrow plunges more and more. If your troops are closer, the orcs set it at a lower angle, thereby reducing the amount it needs to go before plunging. While if we were fighting with throwing javelins, then yes your point would be valid. However, arrows are much easier to plunge into the enemy. Oh, and if you've read Rangers Apprentice, they actually have a tactic (which would work, and was probably used) called Plunging, where a group of archers would fire en masse high into the sky above a pavise or a rock formation to hit enemies behind them. Unless the people behind are using shields, this is a very powerful tactic.
Really? In which case, neither side would be taking any casualties, due to the orcs behind the cover of the cliffs when your arrows are firing, and your troops behind pavises when the orcs fire.
Maybe, but only a rather large crack, or someone shouldering the pavise would allow it to not be knocked over by a few arrows, which would then either weaken your next volley as the elves pick it up, or weaken your force as the elves get smashed.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I thought I made that clear. 8L has a specific unit equipped with pavises, and they're holding them.
Alright, let me try a diagram:
\ \ - - - - - - - \OOO - - - - \ - - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | - - - | PE PE PE PE PE
It's pretty rough, but it gives the general idea. The arc is hard to depict. Essentially, though, the elves are not anywhere near as close for the orcs to acheive the effect you mentioned. The elves are far enough back that the arrows aren't coming almost directly down on them, but are coming at a long, sloping angle, shown in red. The pavises, which are held at a 45 degree angle, will block the arrows, allowing the elves to crouch down and prepare for a volley, and then, while still partially covered, move out and fire. Also, the armies were exchanging volleys, not firing at will. This was the description given throughout the battle. So the elves would be protected, and then have time to release a volley back at the orcs.
I don't see how that's an issue. They don't need to be dug into the ground necessarily, just held firmly. Not to mention, the rocks aren't smooth, so that will help give them support if needed.
Actually, it would be more like this:
____ ___ ___ OOO __ l __ l __ l _ l _ l PEPEPEPEPEPEPE
As the arrow goes further, the arrow plunges more and more. If your troops are closer, the orcs set it at a lower angle, thereby reducing the amount it needs to go before plunging. While if we were fighting with throwing javelins, then yes your point would be valid. However, arrows are much easier to plunge into the enemy. Oh, and if you've read Rangers Apprentice, they actually have a tactic (which would work, and was probably used) called Plunging, where a group of archers would fire en masse high into the sky above a pavise or a rock formation to hit enemies behind them. Unless the people behind are using shields, this is a very powerful tactic.
Really? In which case, neither side would be taking any casualties, due to the orcs behind the cover of the cliffs when your arrows are firing, and your troops behind pavises when the orcs fire.
Maybe, but only a rather large crack, or someone shouldering the pavise would allow it to not be knocked over by a few arrows, which would then either weaken your next volley as the elves pick it up, or weaken your force as the elves get smashed.
And. . . They can't hold the pavises over their heads? I really don't see what the problem is here. Troops with pavises hold said pavises up while you fire and the archers prepare their next volley. Then, the pavises are lowered, the archers fire, and then the pavises are brought back up before you fire again and while the archers reload. So, can the battle move on soon? I've got some Orcs I'd like to blow out of the mountains.
____ ___ ___ OOO __ l __ l __ l _ l _ l PEPEPEPEPEPEPE
As the arrow goes further, the arrow plunges more and more. If your troops are closer, the orcs set it at a lower angle, thereby reducing the amount it needs to go before plunging. While if we were fighting with throwing javelins, then yes your point would be valid. However, arrows are much easier to plunge into the enemy. Oh, and if you've read Rangers Apprentice, they actually have a tactic (which would work, and was probably used) called Plunging, where a group of archers would fire en masse high into the sky above a pavise or a rock formation to hit enemies behind them. Unless the people behind are using shields, this is a very powerful tactic.
Really? In which case, neither side would be taking any casualties, due to the orcs behind the cover of the cliffs when your arrows are firing, and your troops behind pavises when the orcs fire.
Maybe, but only a rather large crack, or someone shouldering the pavise would allow it to not be knocked over by a few arrows, which would then either weaken your next volley as the elves pick it up, or weaken your force as the elves get smashed.
And. . . They can't hold the pavises over their heads? I really don't see what the problem is here. Troops with pavises hold said pavises up while you fire and the archers prepare their next volley. Then, the pavises are lowered, the archers fire, and then the pavises are brought back up before you fire again and while the archers reload. So, can the battle move on soon? I've got some Orcs I'd like to blow out of the mountains.
Exactly. And the troops holding the pavises have to be strong to do there job. They wouldn't be knocked over like you suggest, MM. And who said there was abundant cover from the cliffs?
Yeah, let's get a rough estimate of casualties and move on.
____ ___ ___ OOO __ l __ l __ l _ l _ l PEPEPEPEPEPEPE
As the arrow goes further, the arrow plunges more and more. If your troops are closer, the orcs set it at a lower angle, thereby reducing the amount it needs to go before plunging. While if we were fighting with throwing javelins, then yes your point would be valid. However, arrows are much easier to plunge into the enemy. Oh, and if you've read Rangers Apprentice, they actually have a tactic (which would work, and was probably used) called Plunging, where a group of archers would fire en masse high into the sky above a pavise or a rock formation to hit enemies behind them. Unless the people behind are using shields, this is a very powerful tactic.
Really? In which case, neither side would be taking any casualties, due to the orcs behind the cover of the cliffs when your arrows are firing, and your troops behind pavises when the orcs fire.
Maybe, but only a rather large crack, or someone shouldering the pavise would allow it to not be knocked over by a few arrows, which would then either weaken your next volley as the elves pick it up, or weaken your force as the elves get smashed.
And. . . They can't hold the pavises over their heads? I really don't see what the problem is here. Troops with pavises hold said pavises up while you fire and the archers prepare their next volley. Then, the pavises are lowered, the archers fire, and then the pavises are brought back up before you fire again and while the archers reload. So, can the battle move on soon? I've got some Orcs I'd like to blow out of the mountains.
Maybe, but he said at one point that no-one was holding them, and their is also the fact that no casualties would amount from either side if they did this.
I'm guessing that they could be near, considering that we're ending the debate for them.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
And. . . They can't hold the pavises over their heads? I really don't see what the problem is here. Troops with pavises hold said pavises up while you fire and the archers prepare their next volley. Then, the pavises are lowered, the archers fire, and then the pavises are brought back up before you fire again and while the archers reload. So, can the battle move on soon? I've got some Orcs I'd like to blow out of the mountains.
Maybe, but he said at one point that no-one was holding them, and their is also the fact that no casualties would amount from either side if they did this.
I'm guessing that they could be near, considering that we're ending the debate for them.
When did he say that? It doesn't make sense, given that he has units equipped with them in the first place. And again, there isn't a perfect amount of cover for the orcs, they will take casualties.