Ehh, not so much. The Wikia site is simply inaccurate, while the movies sometimes change details or make stuff up for the sake of the movie. Though it helps when the movies are canon where the book doesn't speak. Though on that note, there's a certain order of authority on the issue of canon. Obviously, the books come first. If one of the books says something, then that's that, with only a few exceptions (which can trump the whole canon list with sufficient reason, some exceptions being those for the sake of overall fairness, and minor extensions that seem reasonable and significantly benefit the RP (as in the case of more kinds of armor and infantry weapons)). After the books come the movies. If the books are quiet on the issue, but the movies address or depict it where the books do not, then the movies' original details are considered canon as the movies are at least a well-known, official presentation of LotR. After the movies come the third-party sources of information, such as games and similar things that are based upon LotR, but have no significant official backing behind their claims. The authorities of physics, comparisons from real-world history, and others such things varies depending upon the subject.
What? Me? Loud? That's ridiculous! I can't believe that you would go so far as accusing me of being loud!
Kitkat, you are very loud. You're practically the only one who gets into exact details of physics. You make sure the pound-to-pressure ratio is right, and all that stuff. So yes, you are loud, and being loud is a good thing in this scenario.
Ehh, Dre and Argh were both involved most of the time when physics and other stuff like that was discussed.
Once again, don't be hasty. Check out Kitkat's long post first. He makes some good points in there.
And even if we do agree that Oliphaunts and Great Beasts are the same thing, I don't think that automatically means you get Oliphaunts. Many Haradrim were at that battle, so the Mordorians probably just borrowed some Oliphaunts to drive their machines.
Tolkien Gateway is a website, I recommend looking it up.
I actually somehow completely skipped over that giant post! Yeah, now I've got a post coming on how I should get several different powerful beasts, similar to Oliphaunts and different Mythological beasts.
Don't push your luck. Should we decide that we're to have "great beasts" besides the Oliphaunts, I expect that we'll stick with the movies' portrayal of said beasts since at least those are clear. If you can provide evidence of defined creatures in either the books or movies, great. But if you're just going off of the possibility that "great beasts" could mean multiple different kinds, then I wouldn't waste your time because we have no details of any other creatures (that I know of) besides those pulling Grond in the movies, and we can't just let you make up any sort of animal that you want on the basis that they fulfill the roles of undefined creatures.
OK, I had a large quote off of Kitkat's giant speel, but it did something and it lost it. Since it was mostly confirming stuff and bringing up problems in long eloquent ways, I'll summarize:
Tolkien was a Literary Analyst, and as such he would have done what Kitkat says on purpose, making it quite clear that their is some form of Great Beast (One of the quotes does mention that it was Oliphaunts pulling things, and Great beasts were their as well). As such, we need to decide what/who gets these "Great Beasts". Do we bring back fell Beasts? What creatures were their? their were "Great Monsters like towers of defense" (Used in a similar setting to Kitkat's quote, next to "Horses ran from the Mumakil, and the Easterlings rallied to them)
So, do we reset (even if nothing has really happened yet) and figure this out completely, or do we let the A&U topic deal with it on a case by case basis?
Mordor, of course, would get the Great Beasts if we decide that they're not Oliphaunts. Can you give me the full quote and context (with exact punctuation) mentioning these "great monsters like towers of defense"? Keep in mind that even if the "great beasts" are different from Oliphaunts, that doesn't mean that "great monsters" are separate from both of them too.
Personally, I wouldn't bother resetting, especially as nobody's even engaged in combat yet (at least, I assume nobody has). Set your troops either with or without the great beasts, and then once we figure things out you can modify your armies to either replace some of your troops with them, or else turn them into other troops.
Ehh, I don't know about that. Unfortunately, the wording and punctuation of Bobby's quote isn't quite precise enough for us to put them being separate out of the question, although it does allow that to be the case.
Part of the problem here is that "great beasts" obviously isn't a proper name, but just a general term traditionally used in reference to a specific creature (at least when the movies are considered) that actually could apply to many other creatures (similar to "fell beast"). It's clear in the quote that "great beasts" are being used in the general sense, but it's not clear that the Oliphaunts are the great beasts questioned.
But so, there are two ways that this quote can be read, each of them equally likely in my opinion. The first way (in simplified form) is: "There came great beasts like moving houses: the Mumakil of Harad dragging great towers and engines." And in this interpretation the first part is written picture of the situation as seen, and the second part is the actuality of the situation. That would make great beasts the same as the Oliphaunts. The second way (which may be harder to portray in a way that is consistently interpreted properly) is (again simplified): "There came great beasts like moving houses, the Mumakil of Harad dragged great towers and engines." And here (however poorly I may have shown it) the great beasts and the Oliphaunts are two separate things: there came great beasts (that were probably not known or named amongst the general populace of the Free Peoples), and there came Oliphaunts. Again, the phrasing of the quote sadly does not eliminate either of these options, and it (standing alone) can be read either way just as well.
As the context is always important in a situation like this, I also don't think we should leave it out (as it sometimes can make clear how a specific section is to be read). Here's the surrounding information in the book (taken directly from my copy): "Ever since the middle night the great assault had gone on. The drums rolled. To the north and to the south company upon company of the enemy pressed to the walls. There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines. Yet their Captain cared not greatly what they did or how many might be slain: their purpose was only to test the strength of the defence and to keep the men of Gondor busy in many places. It was against the Gate that he would throw his heaviest weight." And unfortunately this doesn't make everything clear either, however I believe it does still contribute a bit to the issue at hand. Personally, the context here makes me be inclined to believe that the great beasts and Oliphaunts are two separate things, although it doesn't rule out the option that they're the same. The phrasing of the surrounding sentences seems indicative of a certain idea or thought that was to be portrayed in the writing. The picture that the context paints in my mind is one of great scale, of numerous immense powers all descending upon Minas Tirith, and including foreign and unfamiliar threats. And yet despite the enormity of all of this and of the danger it posed to Gondor, it was but a distraction to Sauron. The idea that the great beasts being separate from the Oliphaunts seems to magnify this overlying theme as it shows that not only were there Oliphaunts, but other large creatures too. It just being Oliphaunts, as great of a threat as they would be, simply doesn't seem as grand. If the great beasts and Oliphaunts were intended to be the same thing, I would expect a different sort of scene of them coming in. For example, if this quote was part of the description of the arriving Haradrim army, it would make perfect sense for the great beasts described to be the Oliphaunts mentioned. These two being one unit would fit much more smoothly if they were introduced as part of a single new army coming in, as opposed to the scene of numerous armies engaged in battle.
Diving deeper into literary analysis, there also appears to be a theme within the phrasing itself. If you look closely, you'll see that Tolkien mentions each aspect of this threat in pairs, or in two parts. They are attacked from the north and the south, company upon company, great beasts and Oliphaunts, huge towers and engines. Each of half of these pairs are related in some way, but they're each their own individual entities. The wording implies that Minas Tirith isn't simply surrounded, but that different armies or at least divisions are attacking from both directions. Each company is a portion of the larger army, but still distinguished from other companies. Oliphaunts approach, yet at the same time there are other great beasts that the Gondorians do not recognize. And finally there are immense towers, but other siege engines too. Combining the great beasts and Oliphaunts, although it would not affect the flow of the presentation, ruins the theme in the writing.
Again, none of these things that I've brought up rule out either option for sure. But with that said, the theme and implications of the context make me inclined to believe that the great beasts and Oliphaunts are two separate things (although the "great beasts" may possibly consist of multiple kinds of creatures) when applied to the particular quote in question. That, combined with the more clear and solid (if less authoritative) presentation of a separate kind of "Great Beast" in the movies causes me to side with there being a "Great Beast" that is different from an Oliphaunt.
Oh, and sorry if I'm being a bit more argumentative than usual (not that I'm sure if I can be considering MM's comment ), or if my arguments are unusual or hard to follow. I'm running off of about twelve hours of sleep for the past three days and just got home from a debate tournament, so my tired yet argument-oriented brain might be picking at straws and trying to build a whole bridge out of them, but explaining how I get the bridge in the most vague and unclear way possible, likely including typos and omitted words in the process. As you can probably see, one of the obvious symptoms of this state that I'm in is excessive rambling about fairly small matters (like the fact that I'm rambling ) and talking about them in ways that will probably only end up making sense to me, and only when I'm in this state. I'll probably have a completely different view once I've gotten enough sleep and have gotten out of debate-mode. You guys will have to let me know if anything I said in this post makes sense. Or if any of you actually made it through my entire. . . Thing.
I read your whole post, and I disagree with it. :tounge: Almost your whole post is based on indirect evidence, what would be grander, what you context you think Tolkien would have written in such and such a case, themes you see. IT's not based on the actual line, which is, as you have it in your post:
There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines.
There is no "and", just a comma. So, the natural reading of this sentence is that the Mumakil are the great beasts, the second part of the sentence clarifies the first.
Now, would having other creatures be more grand? Perhaps. But the scale is grand enough, that we don't need to read the text in odd ways to find other elements to make it more grand. The text creates the meaning which creates the theme. We shouldn't take an overall theme and use it to alter the meaning of individual lines. You could wind up concluding there was an army of dragons if you went down that route.
As for your paragraph about A Haradrim army, I see no reason why they'd fit better in that context. Describing them as great beasts doesn't really depend on the army in whose service they are. Unless you are simply associating "multiple armies" with Multiple "beasts" and one army with one beast, which doesn't follow. Just because there are two or one of one thing doesn't mean some other thing matches those numbers. If it did it would make no sense, and be boring.
And for a theme of two and two, there is a difference. North and south. Company upon Company, towers and engines. The words and and upon note a difference. There is no such word between great beasts and oliphuants. And companies are separate groups of the same thing.
And anyway, this is all indirect, as I said before.
Oh, and in the Two Towers, the Oliphaunt is referred to as "the great beast" so Tolkien did describe Mumuakil that way.
Indirect evidence is still evidence. Though it isn't exactly accurate to say that my evidence isn't based upon the line, as it is based upon the line but just as interpreted through the overall context.
See later point. At least, that's what seems more natural for you. There are many ways that the sentence can be read, and personally, to me it seems to indicate two separate things. So that just makes it your word against mine.
If the meaning of the text is known for sure, then I agree the meaning should not be altered to what we think better fits the overarching theme. But when the meaning of the text is uncertain, is it not reasonable to search the context for a theme that would likely apply to the part that we don't understand, and then use the theme to try to figure out the intended meaning of the line in question? If a theme is created by the text that we know, and then we interpret what we don't know through the lens of the theme that has been created around it, then it is likely that the interpretation is at least similar to the intent of the author (or at least more similar than looking at just what we don't understand and interpreting it based upon itself, ignoring anything the author may have implied to help us understand it). And that's where reason comes in. A bridge has two sides that you can fall off of. You can fall off one side and believe that there's a whole army of Dragons, or you could fall off on the other side and think that the attack came only from the north and south (and not the east or west) or that there were only two companies attacking. Reason is what keeps you on the bridge, but yet it still allows you to walk on one side as opposed to the other and not fall off.
And that's just my own personal opinion (with no other real backing behind it ). As I said, the quote can be interpreted in multiple ways. In the case in question, the contexts makes be believe that the great beasts are not the same as the Oliphaunts, but with a different context I may be just as likely to think that they're the same. And as I said, I was tired when I wrote that, so it could very well just be my brain doing things to me.
Yet commas can also note a separation just as well, even if less clearly. If your parents told you to go to the store and buy "jelly, fish, and peanut butter," would you come back with peanut butter and jellyfish? They probably meant for you to get jelly, peanut butter, and fish, but one could very well interpret either the jelly or the fish as a clarification of the other (resulting in you getting either jellyfish or fish jelly (either jelly that tastes like fish, or jelly made from fish)).
But also as I said before, indirect evidence is still evidence. Does it prove it without a doubt? Of course not, but it still has meaning within the argument.
Could you post the actual quote? Even if that's the case, that doesn't mean that the "great beasts" are Oliphaunts. Do you remember from geometry anything about valid versus invalid statements/deductions? While an Oliphaunt could certainly be called a great beast, not all great beasts are Oliphaunts. Which leads into another point. In the quote about Grond, there is no clarification saying that the great beasts are Oliphaunts. Not all great beasts are the same, and even if the great beasts mentioned earlier are Oliphaunts, that says nothing about the great beasts pulling Grond. Perhaps they're Oliphaunts too, or they could just as likely be something else. At the very least, Tolkien leaves a lot room for interpretation and imagination.
In conclusion, nothing we have really rules out one option or the other. None of my analyzations can prove that the Oliphaunts are unquestionably separate from the great beasts, but neither does the quote say for sure that the Oliphaunts are all of the great beasts, including those pulling Grond. It's even possible that we're both correct: that the part about Oliphaunts is a clarification on the great beasts, but only a portion of them. There's an awful lot of uncertainty within the matter regardless of which way we go, and we're just as likely to be correct by taking one side as we are the other. Thus, this is why I suggest we go with the movies on the matter. Yeah, the books are more authoritative on the matter of canon, but the movies are the next best thing. And while we really have no clue as to whether or not there are these great beasts outside of the Oliphaunts from the books, the movies are perfectly clear not only on their separation, but also on the physical form of the Great Beasts. The books may have more authority, but with the movies we won't have to question whether or not we're interpreting them properly.
I guess I should post the tropp types of Dol Amroth. The lack of a character limit is great.
Regular font = Old units created by CC. Italics = New units created recently by me.
Dol Amroth Archers
Worth 1
W/A: Medium chainmail, bows, sidearms.
Description: Regular archers of the army.
Snipers
Worth 1.2
W/A: light chainmail, steel bows
Description: Their lack of armor is made up for with an amazing aim. Made to sit far from the battle and hit targets off the walls of forts or off steeds from a distance
Sea-Ward Crossbowmen
Worth 1.2
W/A: Medium chainmail, crossbow, sidearm
Description: Experts at Ship to Ship fighting, these archers are made to strike an enemies crew to make way for deck jumping Marines.
"Wall Cleaners"
Worth 1.3
W/A: Heavy Chainmail, Crossbow
Description: This appropriately nicknamed elite archer is put to use at the base of fortified walls shooting upwards to clear a path for ladders, or at a gate to clear defenders from behind it.
Archers of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.5
W/A: Heavy mail, bows, sidearms.
Description: The soldiers of the Sea-ward are an elite force kept as a regular army, like the normal soldiers of Dol Amroth. These soldiers are good shots and can stand their ground in melee.
Rangers of Nimrodel
Worth 2.
W/A: Mail, cloaks, longbows, sidearms.
Description: Men claiming mixed Numenorean and elven lineage, and with impressive aim to prove it.
Men-at-Arms
Worth 1
W/A: Mail, light plate armor, shield, sword.
Description: Regular swordsmen of the army. Come in spear and pike variants, the pikemen lack shields.
Mire Crossers
Worth: 1.2
W/A: Light mail and leather armor, small bow, shortsword and knives
Description: Versatile scouts of Dol Amroth's Infantry. They are named such as they will wait in swamps for enemies to come near
Upclimbers
Worth: 1.2
W/A: Heavy shoulder armor and helm, medium mail, Sidearms, Gauntlet shields
Description: Named after the Sindarin translation for 'Amroth' and also for what they are best at. They are meant to be the first up ladders on enemy forts, clearing back enemies waiting at the top.
Coastal Guard
Worth 1.3
W/A: heavy mail, shield, spear, sidearm.
Description: Part of Dol Amroth's military forces tasked with guarding the coast from corsairs.
Guardians of the Tower
Worth 2
W/A: Medium plate armor, medium mail, 'gular' shield, pike, sword
Description: Even the princes Guards must now go to war. These men are experienced and deadly, and, contrary to appearances, surprisingly versatile.
Dismounted Swan Knights
Worth 3
W/A: Superbly crafted plate, shield, sword.
Description: Warriors of an extreme calibre, who inspire others with their presence.
Coastal Marines
Worth 1
W/A: Mail, shield, sword, javelins.
Description: These men guard the coast from corsairs by land or sea.
Wardens of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.5
W/A: Plate, shield, spear, sidearm.
Description: Veteran and well-equipped men of the Sea-ward.
Corsair's Bane
Worth: 2
W/A: Plate, shield, longsword or hatchet.
Description: When ships are near enough, these deck jumpers are specially trained to sweep onto enemy ships and take them by force. Pirates turn tail and run, when these units are upon their victim's vessels.
Squires
Worth 1.3
W/A: mail, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Not every soldier can afford to be a knight in shining armour.
Knights of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.6
W/A: plate, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Those who can often become a part of the Sea-ward's force.
Knights of the Realm
Worth 2
W/A: Plate, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Experienced and deadly warriors.
Steamrollers
Worth: 2.5
W/A: each Steamroller rides a heavily armored Horse with spike laden leg armor, and a wicked helm with massive blades and other undesirably sharp stuff lining it. They also wear bladed horseshoes. The Rider himself has basic armor and bears a somewhat large shield. They also have a long lance and a few javelins
Description: They are the Ultimate anti-infantry units, and though they're slow, they're fast enough to outrun most men. The horses are trained to keep charging forward without a rider, meaning the armored horse can still do terrible damage.
Swan Knights of Dol Amroth
Worth 4
W/A: Superbly crafted plate, lance, shield, sidearm. Each rides a splendid horse. Description: The best Knights in Dol Amroth and quite possibly the best knights any human realm could possibly offer!
Amroth's Dunedain
Worth: 6 troops
W/A: Sword/spear, shield, steel bow. Heavily armored soldiers clad in Numenorean Armor, bearing both the tree of Gondor, and the Swan of Dol Amroth
Description: Made to match Dre's Black Numenoreans. They are skilled Dunedain, with supreme talent with both sword and Bow.
Adrahil's Riders (Mounted Dunedain)
Worth: 8
W/A: Heavy plate Armor, same as their land based counterparts, Amroth's Dunedain. Lances or spears as well, Shields, and standard swords on their backs. Their steeds are well armored, and have bladed shoes, and an iron 'Unicorn Horn' on the head.
Description: Hailing from the North, the last remnant of the great Cavalry of Arthedain has come to fight for Dol Amroth!
Aglahad's Rangers (Southern Dunedain Rangers)
Worth: 6
W/A: Light armor, under grey cloaks, creating perfect camouflage. They use steel Bows with long arrows, and shorter swords. They also have many smaller weapons on their belts.
Description: On loan from their northern brethren, these Rangers have joined with the men of the Swan to fight for the Southern Kingdom.
Axedancers of the Swan Worth: 4 W/A: Dual hand axes, light chainmail, dirk.
-last edited on Feb 13, 2017 13:17:36 GMT by Ephiril
Post by Ephiril on Feb 13, 2017 13:13:24 GMT
In addition to my last post.
Guardians of the Prince Worth: 5 W/A: Light but strong mail, sword. These nimble warriors are stunningly agile and adept with their blades. They ride horses, and are trained to fight dismounted and mounted.
Post by masterlegobuilders on Feb 13, 2017 13:26:59 GMT
Heheheheheh!!! Enjoy this small story Mods (3000 words), courtesy of the dwarves. All credit goes to KitKat for this troop list
So, here's my rebuilt unit list, which I believe is to be used for Aglarond. I haven't yet repaired my tank databases yet, nor their crew descriptions, so both of those are currently lacking but I don't think that'll be an issue right now. I'll probably post those later, regardless of whether or not they get used.
Melee Infantry:
Swordsmen:
Equipment: Sword, kite shield, dagger, and a mini-crossbow. Heavy chainmail, with portions of plate.
Description. All-around units. Not particularly great at any specific job, but they adapt easily to different situations.
Shield-bearers:
Equipment: Dual tower shields, two daggers, and a light axe. Heavy plate.
Description: Extremely hard to take down, but aren't exactly as dangerous as other units. These troops specialize in covering other troops, and are trained to use a number of formations to increase efficiency.
Halberdiers:
Equipment: Halberd, tower shield, two daggers, and a light axe. Heavy plate.
Description: Erebor's standard defensive unit. Halberdiers are heavily armored and trained to hold tight lines to fend off enemy troops. When attacked from in front, few enemy melee troops besides dedicated shocktroopers/linebreakers stand a chance against them, though they're easily defeated when flanked.
Naginata:
Worth: Two
Equipment: A naginata polearm, two throwing axes, small heater shield. Ultra-heavy plate.
Description: Highly defensive units. They are quite slow, but are extremely hard to smash. While they don't hold lines quite as well as halberdiers they don't need tight formations to survive. They're far more resilient against shocktroopers than halberdiers are, though they're weaker against ranged units.
Sigin-thark (long-staffs):
Worth: Four and a half (about six MWE)
Equipment: Naginata, mini-crossbow, kite shield, and a light axe. Ultra-heavy plate.
Description: Similar to naginata, though far more experienced. Sigin-thark are trained to hold a line against anything short of an artillery bombardment, which is good, because they're not getting anywhere fast. Their naginata are ideal for cutting down shocktroopers before they get too close, and their shields are large enough to deflect arrows and block axes.
Stone Guards:
Worth: Two.
Equipment: One-handed battle-axe, heavy tower shield, a dagger, and a mini-crossbow. Ultra-heavy plate.
Description: Stone guards are highly defensive and very heavily armored, and pose a formidable barrier to virtually any infantry, even shocktroopers. They are similar to the Mahalu, but less powerful and far more practical to field in large numbers.
Macemen:
Equipment: Mace, kite shield, mini crossbow, dagger, and a throwing axe. Light chainmail.
Description: The "glasshammers" of Erebor. They hit hard and move fast, though their light armor makes them relatively easy to take down if someone gets past their shield.
Rakhas-felek (Orc-hewers):
Worth: One and a half
Equipment: Claymore, dagger, and mini crossbow. Chainmail with some light plate.
Description: Lightly armored Dwarves with heavy two-handed swords. While rakhas-felek can use their swords to defend against melee weapons, they have light armor and are thus weak against archers
Axemen:
Worth: Two.
Equipment: Battle-axe, dagger, and two throwing axes. Medium-heavy plate.
Description: Offensive juggernaut-type units. They're generally used as crowdbreakers due to their berserker-like abilities. They're extremely hard to take down because of their heavy armor, and are very dangerous even when cut off from friendly forces. Unfortunately, they're quite slow.
Gunukun (excavators of men/people):
Worth: Four and a half (about six MWE).
Equipment: Battle-axe, mini-crossbow, two throwing axes. Heavy plate.
Description: Elite axemen, Gunukun play essentially the same role as their weaker counterparts, but are far more dangerous.
Climbers:
Worth: One and a half
Equipment: Various pieces of climbing equipment, dagger, throwing axe, two mini crossbows, shield, and a one-handed battle-axe. Chainmail.
Description: Dwarves trained to quickly scale walls using their grappling hooks, and even capable of fighting while hanging on the rope. While these forces aren't efficient for much else, they're quite good at capturing walls.
Doppelsoldner:
Worth: Two.
Equipment: Serrated flammenschwert, a throwing axe, a dagger, and a mini crossbow. Medium-heavy chainmail.
Description: Wielding gigantic swords significantly taller than the soldiers themselves, Doppelsoldner are skilled duelists, and are even quite capable fighting multiple enemies at once. The signature wavy blade of the flammenschwert, along with its serrated edge, imparts unpleasant vibrations into enemy blades, and also quickly cuts through most hafts, giving the Doppelsoldner an slight advantage against most troops and even letting them destroy the weapons of others.
Ranged Infantry:
Light Crossbowmen:
Equipment: Light crossbow, pavise (on back), two daggers, and a mini crossbow. Heavy lamellar.
Description: The primary ranged unit of Erebor. Their crossbows are capable of taking out moderately armored troops from a reasonable range. While their armor is quite effective in deflecting enemy arrows, it's not quite as good at defending against melee weapons.
Heavy Crossbowmen:
Equipment: Heavy crossbow, pavise (on back), two daggers, and a mini crossbow. Heavy lamellar.
Description: Similar to light crossbowmen, except armed with a heavier crossbow and thus have more hitting-power and range, but also a lower rate-of-fire.
Repeating Crossbowmen:
Equipment: Repeating crossbow, pavise (on back), dagger, and a throwing axe. Heavy Lamellar.
Description: Similar to the other crossbowmen types but with repeating crossbows. While these crossbows are weaker, they have a much higher rate-of-fire.
Snipers:
Worth: Two
Equipment: High-powered crossbow, two mini crossbows, two daggers, and two pavises (on back). Medium lamellar.
Description: Experienced crossbowmen equipped with rather large and powerful crossbows capable of out-distancing a longbow with good accuracy. Best from high, somewhat far-off spots, snipers excel at taking out high-priority targets.
Shathuru-felak (chisels of the clouds):
Worth: Four and a half (abut six MWE)
Equipment: Ultra-high-powered crossbow, two mini-crossbows, two daggers, three pavises (on back), and climbing equipment. Light lamellar.
Description: Recruited from the best snipers and equipped with the highest quality weaponry, shathuru-felak are deadly foes. The quality and consistency of their weapons combined with their experience allows a shathuru-felak to have extremely good accuracy. Because of the power of their crossbows, they can out-distance pretty much any other comparable unit, though they're very slow to reload. Given time, A shathuru-felak can reach otherwise-inaccessible areas thanks to their climbing equipment.
Support Units:
Walking Artillery:
Worth: Two.
Equipment: Small repeating ballista, a pavise, and a dagger and a throwing axe for each. Medium lamellar.
Description: Essentially mobile ballistae. Walking artillery consist of a Dwarf carrying a ballista on his back, and another Dwarf operating it. They're slow and can't really defend themselves, but they allow heavy artillery to be brought into tight spaces.
Saboteurs:
Worth: Fifteen
Equipment: Three throwing axes (each), standard mining equipment (each), bottles of oil, wood (if not otherwise provided), and a specialized high-speed mining machine. Light/no armor.
Description: Dwarves trained in mining quickly and accurately (though not beautifully ). Usually having two or three Dwarves per machine, these units are capable of mining tunnels extraordinarily quickly, and their oil and wood can be used to collapse walls (by tunneling under them, and burning the supports). However, they cannot fight off anything more than a scout or two as they're miners, not warriors. The mining machine is essentially a cart with a crank and a few picks, built so that when the crank is turned, the picks repeated hit the walls, mining through them kind of like a normal miner.
(note on mining: Each machine is able to mine an (approximately) thirteen meter tunnel just wide and tall enough for a Dwarf per (non-combat) turn. A tunnel going from out of range of a castle to inside it would take approximately a month to make, and would be wide enough for as many Dwarves as I use mining machines.)
Khelegathol-felek (glass-fortress builders):
Worth: Four and a half (about six MWE)
Equipment: Various tools and supplies for constructing things, two mini-crossbows, two daggers, two throwing axes. Light lamellar.
Description: Battlefield engineers from under the Mountain. Khelegathol aren't very good fighters, though excel at making traps, weapons, and other support equipment.
Elites:
Mahalu-baruk (Aule's axes):
Worth: Six (about eight MWE).
Equipment: One-handed war-axe, two daggers, two mini-crossbows, and a heavy tower shield. Ultra-heavy plate.
Description: The best there is in terms of shock-resistant troops, mahalu-baruk are heavily armed and armored Dwarves that excel at resisting and taking down shock troopers and/or pushing their way through shield walls. Their shields are built for resisting heavy weapons, while their axes are designed for chopping through other shields. Due to their heavy armor and axes, mahalu-baruk are good against just about everything besides cavalry and Trolls.
Warrior Monks:
Worth: Seven (about ten MWE)
Equipment: Various melee weapons (specific Dwarves vary in choice, so it could be just about anything), two daggers, and a mini crossbow. Ancient-style medium fireproof plate.
Description: Dwarves dedicated to Aule. They are great smiths, historians, and very skilled warriors with their weapon of choice. They wear armor (including masks) similar to that which was used by the Dwarves in the First Age, making them nearly immune to heat/fire and quite strong against most other things. The fame of their skill and the quality and appearance of their armor is quite intimidating, making all but the most disciplined troops reluctant to engage them.
Khazadu Zigil Uzbad (Dwarves of the silver lord):
Worth: Ten (approximately thirteen MWE).
Equipment: Double-sided halberd, two mini crossbows, two daggers, and two throwing axes. Medium armor.
Description: The most elite forces of Erebor, and personal bodyguard of the King Under the Mountain. They can take down just about anyone in hand-to-hand combat, and are hard to defeat even when cut off and surrounded. (note that due to their high worth, small numbers, and the complexity of their fighting style, I will mainly use them like PCs).
Stealth Units:
Scouts:
Equipment: Two daggers, two mini-crossbows, and a satchel with a light assortment of traps, powders, and oils. Light chainmail with camouflage.
Description: Basic troops trained in stealth. Scouts are not skilled fighters, but are mainly armed for self-defense. They can lay down traps and take out unwary enemies, but are generally best suited for surveying and other non-combative operations.
Assassins:
Worth: Two
Equipment: Two daggers, two mini-crossbows, and a satchel with assorted traps, powders, and oils. Light chainmail with camouflage.
Description: Similar to scouts, but have proper combat training and are capable of holding their own. Assassins work best when ambushing small, unsuspecting parties, but can face your average soldier with some skill.
Black Plague:
Worth: Four and a half (six MWE).
Equipment: A heavy silenced crossbow, two daggers, two mini-crossbows, and a satchel with a specialized assortment of traps, powders, and oils. Medium-light chainmail with camouflage.
Description: The Black Plague leave few traces outside of the chaos or desolation that may be seen from their work. While very capable of staying hidden in the day and striking effectively during a quiet afternoon, few things are more dreaded than a deployment of the Black Plague striking at night with a storm in the distance. Their camouflage and training render them virtually invisible, and anything more than or including an occasional rumble in the distance is enough to cover up the noise of their shots, and likely anything that might come from their targets. Although their crossbows are not as powerful as most of the same level due to the silencing techniques used (which don't actually silence the crossbow, just greatly muffle it), what power they have is more than enough for their wielders to take out most units with a single shot.
Kheleburk:
Worth: Four and a half.
Equipment: A katana, a dagger, a throwing axe, a mini-crossbow, and a satchel with assorted traps, powders, and oils. Medium chainmail with camouflage.
Description: Most simply described as "battlefield ninja", Kheleburk are adept at moving about unknown, but focus mainly on their combat skill. While most typical infantry struggle against them in open combat, even some of the most elite units have much to fear from an ambush. Their (and the other stealth units', though assortments between them vary) satchels contain various items of use, including basic tools (i.e. matches, rope, etc.), small traps such as caltrops, and things like blinding powders (which can be loaded into their sheaths, giving the Kheleburk an additional advantage when initially engaging) and bottles filled with a flammable oil.
Sankheled:
Worth: Ten (thirteen MWE).
Equipment: Two katana, a silenced crossbow, two daggers, two mini-crossbows, and a satchel with a vast assorted traps, powders, and oils. Medium chainmail with camouflage.
Description: Sankheled are the most elite individuals of Erebor's stealth corps. Few are found who do not want to be, and those that do don't take long to make it known that it was the enemy's mistake to find them. Not only do they have ways of getting into even some of the most secure locations, they're also formidable warriors who can take down most any opponent, particularly when given a chance to prepare something special for them. That said, Sankheled are normally only deployed for the most demanding jobs, often where little backup is available.
Cavalry:
Light cavalry:
Worth: Two
Equipment: Short halberd, two mini-crossbows, dagger, and a throwing axe. Chainmail with portions of plate.
Description: Erebor's basic cavalry unit. Light cavalry excel at running down enemy archers and other exposed units due to being fast but lightly armored.
Shock-boars
Worth: Four and a half (about six MWE)
Equipment: War hammer, two mini-crossbows, and two throwing axes. Heavy plate (the boars themselves have light scalemail and an angled helmet).
Description: As the heavy cavalry of Erebor, shock-boars are designed for devestating any attempt at a formation short of a Gondorian-quality phalanx. Equipped with war hammers and heavily armored, they hit hard, move (somewhat) fast, and are hard to take down. The boars' armor is designed for deflecting pikes and arrows, being shaped in such a way to "encourage" said weapons to glance off.
Skirmishers:
Worth: Two
Equipment: Light crossbow, two mini-crossbows, two daggers, two throwing axes. Medium lamellar.
Description: Skirmishers are, well, skirmishers. They charge enemy units, fire, and retreat before the enemy can react. They're fast, but lightly armored and weak in melee.
Heavy Skirmishers:
Worth: Four and a half.
Equipment: Heavy repeating crosbow, two throwing axes, and two mini-crossbows. Heavy lamellar.
Description: Heavy skirmishers don't strike often, but when they do, they normally devastate their target. Their crossbows are essentially multiple heavy crossbows stacked on top of each other, which means that they can release a tremendous number of bolts in a very short amount of time (i.e. as they run by) without sacrificing much, if any power. That said, in order to reload they have to pull away from the battle and dismount, and also spend a significant amount of time just in the reloading part since they literally have to load multiple heavy crossbows (even doing a single one isn't very quick), and that leaves them rather vulnerable to counterattacks from whatever may remain of their target.
Barashathur (red cloud):
Worth: Three (about four MWE)
Equipment: Repeating crossbow, two throwing axes. Light lamellar.
Description: Similar to standard skirmishers, but equipped with repeating crossbows. While barashathur aren't quite as good at punching through armor and shields as normal skirmishers are, they can absolutely demolish enemy troops when following through after a good shock-boar charge.
Siege weapons/infantry support:
Polybolos:
Worth: Three (can't remember if it's one for the weapon and two for the crew, or vice versa Joking).
Description: A Dwarven variation of the Greek ballista, which is obviously a bit more efficient (being Dwarven). The polybolos uses a flat-link chain to draw the string and also load the next bolt, allowing a full-power single-operator-sized ballista to reload significantly more quickly. Now it does come with a few drawbacks, such as slightly lower accuracy due to how it's worked, but it retains most, if not all of its power yet fires noticeably faster than any standard weapon of comparable strength. The field version of this weapon (any instance of it not mounted on top of a building or vehicle) is mounted on a pair of two wheels, with a folding stand in the back for quick and easy transportation.
Repeating Arbalests:
Worth: Three (again Joking).
Description: Essentially an oversized Chinese repeating crossbow (aka chu-ko-nu). A repeating arbalest is a small arbalest (similar in size to the polybolos) fitted with a lever to reload in the same method as a traditional chu-ko-nu. Portions of the mechanisms are made of metal and ash wood, allowing them to withstand the extra stress, but also increasing the weight of the weapon. Repeating arbalests are also a bit weaker than most arbalests of similar size in order to make the reloading mechanism usable, but their astonishing rate of fire far outweighs its disadvantages in many situations. Field repeating arbalests are on mounts similar to those of a polybolos.
Mortars:
Worth: Three (ditto Joking).
Description: Mortars are high-caliber, high-power, small-sized arbalests, typically resting on stands that make them fire above forty-five degrees. These arbalests are designed to fire virtually any sort of ammunition an artillery tank would normally use, but on a smaller scale, and most commonly using standard stones or else incendiary rounds (but they can also fire other things, like smoke-grenades or powder-balls, for various effects). The major drawback of having such high power in such a small package is that these things are very difficult and slow to reload, requiring special equipment and a safe place.
Fireblades:
Worth: 30 (about 40 MWE)
Description: Think furnace, with wings wheels. Joking Fireblades are essentially essentially modified furnaces. On the bottom, they have a nearly square and very short heat-resistant box mounted on wheels (with the box sitting quite low to the ground), and higher up there's a large container of oil-soaked coal with a special feeder operated by a crank. The front end of the "fire-box" is open except for a small ledge to keep coal from falling out, and the back is the same except that it has several fans (which can be operated either by a crank or by moving the wheels, and are geared up a little bit so that the fans spin relatively quickly).
Fireblades are quite slow (perhaps the speed of a large battering ram), but they're nearly unassailable from the front because the heat.
One mod to rule them all and in the darkness ban them - Lord of the Mods "I am the Mod Reborn!" - masterlegobuilders I'm the real boss
Kitkat, you are very loud. You're practically the only one who gets into exact details of physics. You make sure the pound-to-pressure ratio is right, and all that stuff. So yes, you are loud, and being loud is a good thing in this scenario.
Ehh, Dre and Argh were both involved most of the time when physics and other stuff like that was discussed.
Not anymore
One mod to rule them all and in the darkness ban them - Lord of the Mods "I am the Mod Reborn!" - masterlegobuilders I'm the real boss
I guess I should post the tropp types of Dol Amroth. The lack of a character limit is great.
Regular font = Old units created by CC. Italics = New units created recently by me.
Dol Amroth Archers
Worth 1
W/A: Medium chainmail, bows, sidearms.
Description: Regular archers of the army.
Snipers
Worth 1.2
W/A: light chainmail, steel bows
Description: Their lack of armor is made up for with an amazing aim. Made to sit far from the battle and hit targets off the walls of forts or off steeds from a distance
Sea-Ward Crossbowmen
Worth 1.2
W/A: Medium chainmail, crossbow, sidearm
Description: Experts at Ship to Ship fighting, these archers are made to strike an enemies crew to make way for deck jumping Marines.
"Wall Cleaners"
Worth 1.3
W/A: Heavy Chainmail, Crossbow
Description: This appropriately nicknamed elite archer is put to use at the base of fortified walls shooting upwards to clear a path for ladders, or at a gate to clear defenders from behind it.
Archers of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.5
W/A: Heavy mail, bows, sidearms.
Description: The soldiers of the Sea-ward are an elite force kept as a regular army, like the normal soldiers of Dol Amroth. These soldiers are good shots and can stand their ground in melee.
Rangers of Nimrodel
Worth 2.
W/A: Mail, cloaks, longbows, sidearms.
Description: Men claiming mixed Numenorean and elven lineage, and with impressive aim to prove it.
Men-at-Arms
Worth 1
W/A: Mail, light plate armor, shield, sword.
Description: Regular swordsmen of the army. Come in spear and pike variants, the pikemen lack shields.
Mire Crossers
Worth: 1.2
W/A: Light mail and leather armor, small bow, shortsword and knives
Description: Versatile scouts of Dol Amroth's Infantry. They are named such as they will wait in swamps for enemies to come near
Upclimbers
Worth: 1.2
W/A: Heavy shoulder armor and helm, medium mail, Sidearms, Gauntlet shields
Description: Named after the Sindarin translation for 'Amroth' and also for what they are best at. They are meant to be the first up ladders on enemy forts, clearing back enemies waiting at the top.
Coastal Guard
Worth 1.3
W/A: heavy mail, shield, spear, sidearm.
Description: Part of Dol Amroth's military forces tasked with guarding the coast from corsairs.
Guardians of the Tower
Worth 2
W/A: Medium plate armor, medium mail, 'gular' shield, pike, sword
Description: Even the princes Guards must now go to war. These men are experienced and deadly, and, contrary to appearances, surprisingly versatile.
Dismounted Swan Knights
Worth 3
W/A: Superbly crafted plate, shield, sword.
Description: Warriors of an extreme calibre, who inspire others with their presence.
Coastal Marines
Worth 1
W/A: Mail, shield, sword, javelins.
Description: These men guard the coast from corsairs by land or sea.
Wardens of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.5
W/A: Plate, shield, spear, sidearm.
Description: Veteran and well-equipped men of the Sea-ward.
Corsair's Bane
Worth: 2
W/A: Plate, shield, longsword or hatchet.
Description: When ships are near enough, these deck jumpers are specially trained to sweep onto enemy ships and take them by force. Pirates turn tail and run, when these units are upon their victim's vessels.
Squires
Worth 1.3
W/A: mail, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Not every soldier can afford to be a knight in shining armour.
Knights of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.6
W/A: plate, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Those who can often become a part of the Sea-ward's force.
Knights of the Realm
Worth 2
W/A: Plate, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Experienced and deadly warriors.
Steamrollers
Worth: 2.5
W/A: each Steamroller rides a heavily armored Horse with spike laden leg armor, and a wicked helm with massive blades and other undesirably sharp stuff lining it. They also wear bladed horseshoes. The Rider himself has basic armor and bears a somewhat large shield. They also have a long lance and a few javelins
Description: They are the Ultimate anti-infantry units, and though they're slow, they're fast enough to outrun most men. The horses are trained to keep charging forward without a rider, meaning the armored horse can still do terrible damage.
Swan Knights of Dol Amroth
Worth 4
W/A: Superbly crafted plate, lance, shield, sidearm. Each rides a splendid horse. Description: The best Knights in Dol Amroth and quite possibly the best knights any human realm could possibly offer!
Amroth's Dunedain
Worth: 6 troops
W/A: Sword/spear, shield, steel bow. Heavily armored soldiers clad in Numenorean Armor, bearing both the tree of Gondor, and the Swan of Dol Amroth
Description: Made to match Dre's Black Numenoreans. They are skilled Dunedain, with supreme talent with both sword and Bow.
Adrahil's Riders (Mounted Dunedain)
Worth: 8
W/A: Heavy plate Armor, same as their land based counterparts, Amroth's Dunedain. Lances or spears as well, Shields, and standard swords on their backs. Their steeds are well armored, and have bladed shoes, and an iron 'Unicorn Horn' on the head.
Description: Hailing from the North, the last remnant of the great Cavalry of Arthedain has come to fight for Dol Amroth!
Aglahad's Rangers (Southern Dunedain Rangers)
Worth: 6
W/A: Light armor, under grey cloaks, creating perfect camouflage. They use steel Bows with long arrows, and shorter swords. They also have many smaller weapons on their belts.
Description: On loan from their northern brethren, these Rangers have joined with the men of the Swan to fight for the Southern Kingdom.
Axedancers of the Swan Worth: 4 W/A: Dual hand axes, light chainmail, dirk.
The Steam Rollers need to be higher worth. I'd say at least 5.
Tul Generas of the Orcs, Darthraxx of the dragon Knights. I RP, and have lots of fun.
I guess I should post the tropp types of Dol Amroth. The lack of a character limit is great.
Regular font = Old units created by CC. Italics = New units created recently by me.
Dol Amroth Archers
Worth 1
W/A: Medium chainmail, bows, sidearms.
Description: Regular archers of the army.
Snipers
Worth 1.2
W/A: light chainmail, steel bows
Description: Their lack of armor is made up for with an amazing aim. Made to sit far from the battle and hit targets off the walls of forts or off steeds from a distance
Sea-Ward Crossbowmen
Worth 1.2
W/A: Medium chainmail, crossbow, sidearm
Description: Experts at Ship to Ship fighting, these archers are made to strike an enemies crew to make way for deck jumping Marines.
"Wall Cleaners"
Worth 1.3
W/A: Heavy Chainmail, Crossbow
Description: This appropriately nicknamed elite archer is put to use at the base of fortified walls shooting upwards to clear a path for ladders, or at a gate to clear defenders from behind it.
Archers of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.5
W/A: Heavy mail, bows, sidearms.
Description: The soldiers of the Sea-ward are an elite force kept as a regular army, like the normal soldiers of Dol Amroth. These soldiers are good shots and can stand their ground in melee.
Rangers of Nimrodel
Worth 2.
W/A: Mail, cloaks, longbows, sidearms.
Description: Men claiming mixed Numenorean and elven lineage, and with impressive aim to prove it.
Men-at-Arms
Worth 1
W/A: Mail, light plate armor, shield, sword.
Description: Regular swordsmen of the army. Come in spear and pike variants, the pikemen lack shields.
Mire Crossers
Worth: 1.2
W/A: Light mail and leather armor, small bow, shortsword and knives
Description: Versatile scouts of Dol Amroth's Infantry. They are named such as they will wait in swamps for enemies to come near
Upclimbers
Worth: 1.2
W/A: Heavy shoulder armor and helm, medium mail, Sidearms, Gauntlet shields
Description: Named after the Sindarin translation for 'Amroth' and also for what they are best at. They are meant to be the first up ladders on enemy forts, clearing back enemies waiting at the top.
Coastal Guard
Worth 1.3
W/A: heavy mail, shield, spear, sidearm.
Description: Part of Dol Amroth's military forces tasked with guarding the coast from corsairs.
Guardians of the Tower
Worth 2
W/A: Medium plate armor, medium mail, 'gular' shield, pike, sword
Description: Even the princes Guards must now go to war. These men are experienced and deadly, and, contrary to appearances, surprisingly versatile.
Dismounted Swan Knights
Worth 3
W/A: Superbly crafted plate, shield, sword.
Description: Warriors of an extreme calibre, who inspire others with their presence.
Coastal Marines
Worth 1
W/A: Mail, shield, sword, javelins.
Description: These men guard the coast from corsairs by land or sea.
Wardens of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.5
W/A: Plate, shield, spear, sidearm.
Description: Veteran and well-equipped men of the Sea-ward.
Corsair's Bane
Worth: 2
W/A: Plate, shield, longsword or hatchet.
Description: When ships are near enough, these deck jumpers are specially trained to sweep onto enemy ships and take them by force. Pirates turn tail and run, when these units are upon their victim's vessels.
Squires
Worth 1.3
W/A: mail, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Not every soldier can afford to be a knight in shining armour.
Knights of Tirith Aear
Worth 1.6
W/A: plate, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Those who can often become a part of the Sea-ward's force.
Knights of the Realm
Worth 2
W/A: Plate, lance, shield, sidearm.
Description: Experienced and deadly warriors.
Steamrollers
Worth: 2.5
W/A: each Steamroller rides a heavily armored Horse with spike laden leg armor, and a wicked helm with massive blades and other undesirably sharp stuff lining it. They also wear bladed horseshoes. The Rider himself has basic armor and bears a somewhat large shield. They also have a long lance and a few javelins
Description: They are the Ultimate anti-infantry units, and though they're slow, they're fast enough to outrun most men. The horses are trained to keep charging forward without a rider, meaning the armored horse can still do terrible damage.
Swan Knights of Dol Amroth
Worth 4
W/A: Superbly crafted plate, lance, shield, sidearm. Each rides a splendid horse. Description: The best Knights in Dol Amroth and quite possibly the best knights any human realm could possibly offer!
Amroth's Dunedain
Worth: 6 troops
W/A: Sword/spear, shield, steel bow. Heavily armored soldiers clad in Numenorean Armor, bearing both the tree of Gondor, and the Swan of Dol Amroth
Description: Made to match Dre's Black Numenoreans. They are skilled Dunedain, with supreme talent with both sword and Bow.
Adrahil's Riders (Mounted Dunedain)
Worth: 8
W/A: Heavy plate Armor, same as their land based counterparts, Amroth's Dunedain. Lances or spears as well, Shields, and standard swords on their backs. Their steeds are well armored, and have bladed shoes, and an iron 'Unicorn Horn' on the head.
Description: Hailing from the North, the last remnant of the great Cavalry of Arthedain has come to fight for Dol Amroth!
Aglahad's Rangers (Southern Dunedain Rangers)
Worth: 6
W/A: Light armor, under grey cloaks, creating perfect camouflage. They use steel Bows with long arrows, and shorter swords. They also have many smaller weapons on their belts.
Description: On loan from their northern brethren, these Rangers have joined with the men of the Swan to fight for the Southern Kingdom.
Axedancers of the Swan Worth: 4 W/A: Dual hand axes, light chainmail, dirk.
Several of these units seem under priced. Like if the swan knight is the best cavalry in the world you would think they should be more like 6+MWE and their dismounted counterpart should be 4+ MWE. It seems like too meany of your troops have plate armor for the cost. Especially the cavalry. So I would either increase the cost or decrease the armor.
OK, I had a large quote off of Kitkat's giant speel, but it did something and it lost it. Since it was mostly confirming stuff and bringing up problems in long eloquent ways, I'll summarize:
Tolkien was a Literary Analyst, and as such he would have done what Kitkat says on purpose, making it quite clear that their is some form of Great Beast (One of the quotes does mention that it was Oliphaunts pulling things, and Great beasts were their as well). As such, we need to decide what/who gets these "Great Beasts". Do we bring back fell Beasts? What creatures were their? their were "Great Monsters like towers of defense" (Used in a similar setting to Kitkat's quote, next to "Horses ran from the Mumakil, and the Easterlings rallied to them)
So, do we reset (even if nothing has really happened yet) and figure this out completely, or do we let the A&U topic deal with it on a case by case basis?
Mordor, of course, would get the Great Beasts if we decide that they're not Oliphaunts. Can you give me the full quote and context (with exact punctuation) mentioning these "great monsters like towers of defense"? Keep in mind that even if the "great beasts" are different from Oliphaunts, that doesn't mean that "great monsters" are separate from both of them too.
Personally, I wouldn't bother resetting, especially as nobody's even engaged in combat yet (at least, I assume nobody has). Set your troops either with or without the great beasts, and then once we figure things out you can modify your armies to either replace some of your troops with them, or else turn them into other troops.
I believe the line to which he refers is:
"But wherever the mûmakil came there the horses would not go, but blenched and swerved away; and the great monsters were unfought, and stood like towers of defence, and the Haradrim rallied about them."
This context is very clearly referring to the Oliphaunts, I think The horses don't go near the Mumakil, so they remain unfought.
I read your whole post, and I disagree with it. :tounge: Almost your whole post is based on indirect evidence, what would be grander, what you context you think Tolkien would have written in such and such a case, themes you see. IT's not based on the actual line, which is, as you have it in your post:
There came great beasts, like moving houses in the red and fitful light, the mumakil of the Harad dragging through the lanes amid the fires huge towers and engines.
There is no "and", just a comma. So, the natural reading of this sentence is that the Mumakil are the great beasts, the second part of the sentence clarifies the first.
Now, would having other creatures be more grand? Perhaps. But the scale is grand enough, that we don't need to read the text in odd ways to find other elements to make it more grand. The text creates the meaning which creates the theme. We shouldn't take an overall theme and use it to alter the meaning of individual lines. You could wind up concluding there was an army of dragons if you went down that route.
As for your paragraph about A Haradrim army, I see no reason why they'd fit better in that context. Describing them as great beasts doesn't really depend on the army in whose service they are. Unless you are simply associating "multiple armies" with Multiple "beasts" and one army with one beast, which doesn't follow. Just because there are two or one of one thing doesn't mean some other thing matches those numbers. If it did it would make no sense, and be boring.
And for a theme of two and two, there is a difference. North and south. Company upon Company, towers and engines. The words and and upon note a difference. There is no such word between great beasts and oliphuants. And companies are separate groups of the same thing.
And anyway, this is all indirect, as I said before.
Oh, and in the Two Towers, the Oliphaunt is referred to as "the great beast" so Tolkien did describe Mumuakil that way.
Indirect evidence is still evidence. Though it isn't exactly accurate to say that my evidence isn't based upon the line, as it is based upon the line but just as interpreted through the overall context.
See later point. At least, that's what seems more natural for you. There are many ways that the sentence can be read, and personally, to me it seems to indicate two separate things. So that just makes it your word against mine.
If the meaning of the text is known for sure, then I agree the meaning should not be altered to what we think better fits the overarching theme. But when the meaning of the text is uncertain, is it not reasonable to search the context for a theme that would likely apply to the part that we don't understand, and then use the theme to try to figure out the intended meaning of the line in question? If a theme is created by the text that we know, and then we interpret what we don't know through the lens of the theme that has been created around it, then it is likely that the interpretation is at least similar to the intent of the author (or at least more similar than looking at just what we don't understand and interpreting it based upon itself, ignoring anything the author may have implied to help us understand it). And that's where reason comes in. A bridge has two sides that you can fall off of. You can fall off one side and believe that there's a whole army of Dragons, or you could fall off on the other side and think that the attack came only from the north and south (and not the east or west) or that there were only two companies attacking. Reason is what keeps you on the bridge, but yet it still allows you to walk on one side as opposed to the other and not fall off.
And that's just my own personal opinion (with no other real backing behind it ). As I said, the quote can be interpreted in multiple ways. In the case in question, the contexts makes be believe that the great beasts are not the same as the Oliphaunts, but with a different context I may be just as likely to think that they're the same. And as I said, I was tired when I wrote that, so it could very well just be my brain doing things to me.
Yet commas can also note a separation just as well, even if less clearly. If your parents told you to go to the store and buy "jelly, fish, and peanut butter," would you come back with peanut butter and jellyfish? They probably meant for you to get jelly, peanut butter, and fish, but one could very well interpret either the jelly or the fish as a clarification of the other (resulting in you getting either jellyfish or fish jelly (either jelly that tastes like fish, or jelly made from fish)).
But also as I said before, indirect evidence is still evidence. Does it prove it without a doubt? Of course not, but it still has meaning within the argument.
Could you post the actual quote? Even if that's the case, that doesn't mean that the "great beasts" are Oliphaunts. Do you remember from geometry anything about valid versus invalid statements/deductions? While an Oliphaunt could certainly be called a great beast, not all great beasts are Oliphaunts. Which leads into another point. In the quote about Grond, there is no clarification saying that the great beasts are Oliphaunts. Not all great beasts are the same, and even if the great beasts mentioned earlier are Oliphaunts, that says nothing about the great beasts pulling Grond. Perhaps they're Oliphaunts too, or they could just as likely be something else. At the very least, Tolkien leaves a lot room for interpretation and imagination.
In conclusion, nothing we have really rules out one option or the other. None of my analyzations can prove that the Oliphaunts are unquestionably separate from the great beasts, but neither does the quote say for sure that the Oliphaunts are all of the great beasts, including those pulling Grond. It's even possible that we're both correct: that the part about Oliphaunts is a clarification on the great beasts, but only a portion of them. There's an awful lot of uncertainty within the matter regardless of which way we go, and we're just as likely to be correct by taking one side as we are the other. Thus, this is why I suggest we go with the movies on the matter. Yeah, the books are more authoritative on the matter of canon, but the movies are the next best thing. And while we really have no clue as to whether or not there are these great beasts outside of the Oliphaunts from the books, the movies are perfectly clear not only on their separation, but also on the physical form of the Great Beasts. The books may have more authority, but with the movies we won't have to question whether or not we're interpreting them properly.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I'm right, but I realized we don't really need to debate, because:
I don't actually mind him using the Great Beasts from the movie. I like them, even if they're not in the book, and we use other things just from the movies. If he uses them, however, I think he needs to stick close to the movie, which would probably mean not using them direct heavy combat units.
Just one point: commas are only used to denote sepearation when you have at least three items, with commas separating the items and a comma and "and" before the final item. : Get jelly, fish, and bread. When you only have two items you just use "and"(And sometimes a comma): Get jelly and fish.
Mordor, of course, would get the Great Beasts if we decide that they're not Oliphaunts. Can you give me the full quote and context (with exact punctuation) mentioning these "great monsters like towers of defense"? Keep in mind that even if the "great beasts" are different from Oliphaunts, that doesn't mean that "great monsters" are separate from both of them too.
Personally, I wouldn't bother resetting, especially as nobody's even engaged in combat yet (at least, I assume nobody has). Set your troops either with or without the great beasts, and then once we figure things out you can modify your armies to either replace some of your troops with them, or else turn them into other troops.
I believe the line to which he refers is:
"But wherever the mûmakil came there the horses would not go, but blenched and swerved away; and the great monsters were unfought, and stood like towers of defence, and the Haradrim rallied about them."
This context is very clearly referring to the Oliphaunts, I think The horses don't go near the Mumakil, so they remain unfought.
Oh yeah, that's certainly the Oliphaunts. No amount of analyzation is going to say otherwise.